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View Full Version : 9-11...could it have been stoped?



lay_z_boy01
05-08-2004, 10:13 PM
this is quite off the topic of games n computers, but this is quite interesting.

9-11..

could it have been stoped.

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/true911.html

please visit this link, tell me what you think, agree or disagree. pass it on or dont.

*added a comment*

u do realise, they hit the most powerful, most advanced military intelligence unit, the Pentagon. and u tell me there's NOTHING going on?

lay_z_boy01
05-08-2004, 10:13 PM
this is quite off the topic of games n computers, but this is quite interesting.

9-11..

could it have been stoped.

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/true911.html

please visit this link, tell me what you think, agree or disagree. pass it on or dont.

*added a comment*

u do realise, they hit the most powerful, most advanced military intelligence unit, the Pentagon. and u tell me there's NOTHING going on?

OverclockN
05-08-2004, 10:25 PM
I say we keep it out of the forum completely. People political views and opinions from different ethnical groups can get pretty nasty when thrown into the mix....

Thats what I think.

jimmyeyes
05-08-2004, 11:00 PM
complete and udder shat...too stop the 9-11 attacks you would have to get to the root of the problem. He reads a book for 20 min during the attacks...what could he have done? It's pretty plain to see that bush is not the one in control...thank god


The main faults leading to 9-11 were a lack of airport security and no emergency plan for the cockpit. if the pilot had a lockable door or some kind of defence weapon {pepper spray} 9-11 could have been prevented.

When bush and his staff have a federal document with the title reading "osama bin ladin determined to attack within the U.S.A" 6 months before 9-11 and no measures are taken what so ever?. the entire 6 month before the attack both the cia and the fbi have their heads so far up their asses, only coming out to blame the other for the lack of information....sad


"edit"

both of you are new too the forums around here so I will start off by saying hello and welcome. As for political discussions there have been several that remained civil and dignified, the events taking place now will impact decades of people and change the world economy forever. with such large implications on a global scale the matter should be discussed to the fullest.

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sat May 08 2004 at 10:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sun May 09 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

kimi_
05-09-2004, 12:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OverclockN:
I say we keep it out of the forum completely. People political views and opinions from different ethnical groups can get pretty nasty when thrown into the mix....

Thats what I think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will allow the political talk. If anyone chooses to use a political thread as a means to cuss, flame, or otherwise troll they will quickly be stopped as will the thread.

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lay_z_boy01
05-09-2004, 03:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He reads a book for 20 min during the attacks...what could he have done? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what could he have done? ill tell you what he could have done.

-he was informed that planes were being hijacked. i think he could have done MUCH more than read a book about goats.

the most *resnable* (dont know how to spell :P) could have been to shoot the planes down, save 10,000 lives. stop them from hitting the PENTAGON, but instead he finnaly shot ONE down when they were going towards his big white house..hmm

-cockpit locks

all planes have special locks into the cockpit. the only reason they went outside the cockpit was because the pilots heard the *stuwartdess* (unknown spelling) was distressing.

-higher airport security

i agree

-pilots with non-lethal weaopons

i agree

Fragger-
05-09-2004, 03:33 AM
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Antrodemus
05-09-2004, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...could have been to shoot the planes down<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chances are they didn't have a clue what they (the terrorists)) intended to do, and probably assumed, not unreasonably, that the last thing they had in mind was to use the aircraft as weapons. History has shown that air-hijacks tend to be a way for dissident groups to gain notoriety & monetary / equipment gain, and/or escape to another country.

Also, the civilian casualty numbers could have been just as bad, if not worse, had the Air Force shot them down. How then, would the Pentagon prove their actual intent? Most likely they would then be held directly accountable.

A.

RedneckHunter
05-09-2004, 10:08 AM
By the time the CAP scrambled they were still 30min from NY. Contrary to rumors, no planes were shot down, the only one to NOT make it's target was the one that crashed when the passengers attempted to get back control.

"Just shoot them down". You think it is that easy? Have you ever been behind the trigger, where you knew once you engaged, people were gonna die? Can you even IMAGINE that? I HAVE been there, everytime we engaged a target, someone DIED. Yeah sure it would have saved lives but it would still have killed. That and a standard Stinger will NOT take down a heavy jet. It may mess it up good but it will still fly.

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MattUSMC67
05-09-2004, 10:48 AM
Quote Lay_Z_Boy01
"what could he have done? ill tell you what he could have done.

-he was informed that planes were being hijacked. i think he could have done MUCH more than read a book about goats."

He wouldnt have been able to order a shootdown until the first plane hit the tower and by then Air Force planes wouldnt have made it within range in time. No one knew that there intention was to fly planes into buildings. They probly thought the hijackers would demand to be taken someplace and demand some prisoner of theres that we held to be released. This attack was the unknown, in war the unknown is always the hardest to deal with. Hindsight is always 20/20

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

mr.amphibian
05-11-2004, 02:08 PM
i gotta say fraggers idea is the best one for aerial attack evasion... why dont they simply make mobuile buildings which can duck n dodge? in fact they could always give the buildings the ability to jump up and ninja chop the plane outta the air then set it down on a runway the building creates for the plane (crisis management here i come!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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Madman777
05-11-2004, 08:34 PM
It is all too easy to suggest what should have been done now, well after the fact...at the time, I imagine the WH and Pentagon were almost as confused and unsure as the people in the towers...as far as shooting the planes down, they were preparing to do that, and as stated in here previously, that is not an easy decision to make, I'm just glad some poor airforce pilot wasn't forced to do it!

Have a good day, eh!

KoolandFresh
05-11-2004, 09:34 PM
I believe the question was '9-11...could it have been stopped?'

My personnal belief is 'YES' and the how might shock you. Two words...ready?...racial disrimination. Now, before you rip me a new one here me out, and I will explain.

1. the terrorists ask to fly a plane and are not concerned about how to land...the flight instructor wanted no trouble with POLITICAL CORRECT lawyers so he teaches them.
2. the night before the hyjackings the terrorists brag about what they where about to do in a local bar...the bartender and bartendees did nothing. Same excuse as no.1?
3. the famous airport security AND the people who check in tickets/baggages reported suspecious characters to two different supervisors who said let them on as to not make a seen because of there race.

I think my point is clear...now you decide.

sharpsplinter
05-13-2004, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KoolandFresh:
I believe the question was '9-11...could it have been stopped?'

My personnal belief is 'YES' and the how might shock you. Two words...ready?...racial disrimination. Now, before you rip me a new one here me out, and I will explain.

1. the terrorists ask to fly a plane and are not concerned about how to land...the flight instructor wanted no trouble with POLITICAL CORRECT lawyers so he teaches them.
2. the night before the hyjackings the terrorists brag about what they where about to do in a local bar...the bartender and bartendees did nothing. Same excuse as no.1?
3. the famous airport security AND the people who check in tickets/baggages reported suspecious characters to two different supervisors who said let them on as to not make a seen because of there race.

I think my point is clear...now you decide.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After seeig what you just say i would say yes it could of been stopped, but not at all Bush's fault. Ok, i'm not gonna say anything else and keep my mouth closed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v190/gamew/mercs.jpg

sharpsplinter
05-13-2004, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedneckHunter:
By the time the CAP scrambled they were still 30min from NY. Contrary to rumors, no planes were shot down, the only one to NOT make it's target was the one that crashed when the passengers attempted to get back control.

"Just shoot them down". You think it is that easy? Have you ever been behind the trigger, where you knew once you engaged, people were gonna die? Can you even IMAGINE that? I HAVE been there, everytime we engaged a target, someone DIED. Yeah sure it would have saved lives but it would still have killed. That and a standard Stinger will NOT take down a heavy jet. It may mess it up good but it will still fly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>]
*Agree* (guess my mouth isn't gonna stay closed)

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*when you quote someone, DO remove the signature..this made your one line post only huge and make people miss your actual answer*

[This message was edited by Killer_Waffle on Fri May 14 2004 at 02:33 AM.]

seinfeldrules33
05-13-2004, 06:50 PM
He was reading a book TO LITTLE KIDS, not like a novel or anything. And if my mind serves me correctly that was during the first hit. At that point it may of likely been an accident! Good lord that is a disgusting lie. You should be ashamed of yourself if you believe Bush perputrated 9/11 or did nothing to stop it. Get real people.

-----------------------------
-=|DMA|=- S.R.

"Im Cosmo Kramer, the assman!"

Killer_Waffle
05-14-2004, 03:36 AM
just want to sidetrack for a second here...was quite baffled by the fact that rumsfeld got a report in march, propably marked highly sensitive and yet he leaves it on his desk for quite a while....but yesterday during his speech he mentioned he was reading a book about the civil war in the us and was comparing iraq- us civil war parts....doesn't anyone find this rather odd?

as for 9/11...Bush did miss quite a few oppertunities and iraq was the mistake to make, i'm just hoping you guys know what to do in november...

NI!

MattUSMC67
05-17-2004, 07:01 PM
Quote Killer_Waffle

"as for 9/11...Bush did miss quite a few oppertunities and iraq was the mistake to make, i'm just hoping you guys know what to do in november..."

Even if Bush knew I doubt he would have been able to react in time to stop the attacks on Sept 11th. Our Govn. system works too slow.

The Iraq War wasnt a mistake it is vital to the future of the War to have Iraq as a staging area to invade Iran and attack Syria and anyone else in the middle east who wants to kill Americans.

I know exactly what to do come November I will vote for the candidate who will be toughest on our enemies. I will vote for the candidate who has the heart to launch a Nuclear strike on our enemies if the need be. I will not vote for the weak hearted candidate John Kerry.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

steelyglint42
05-19-2004, 07:40 AM
I seriously doubt that 9-11 could have been stopped no human being politician or not would have allowed such an atrocity to be committed george Bush may be a shambling fool but I doubt he or any other politician would have allowed such an outrage to occur. I hope as an Englishman that your elections produce a more peace loving and less trigger happy Administration, strength does not necessarily have to be military in nature.

R1ZN0
05-19-2004, 05:34 PM
strength has always been military in nature...just look at the U.N (big JOKE) the only time they can get anything done is by putting socalled u n peacekeepers on the ground. People can sit back and politic about how things should be or how they wish the world was but untill boots hit the ground nothing will get acomplished.

steelyglint42
05-20-2004, 02:54 AM
International cooperation has brought libya to it's senses, changed the whole political outlook in south africa etc. although I agree military strenghth is a necessary evil the idea of George Bush weilding such a big stick scares this father of 2 young children. In any case 9-11 could not have been stopped by either military force or politics the fact is that lunacy like this is part of human nature, whatever systems of government are in place someone somewhere will oppose them.

Haldrix
05-22-2004, 04:47 PM
And to cmplete this...Mikael Moore won the best price in FRANCE (Cannes Festival) for Farenheit 911...what's coming next ?

MattUSMC67
05-26-2004, 10:41 AM
Quote steelyglint42
"International cooperation has brought libya to it's senses"

I disagree I think Bush invading Iraq has got Kadaffi scared thats why he decided to give up his WMD, although international pressure helps. He knows if he doesent straighten up he'll be next. You said it yourself.

"the idea of George Bush weilding such a big stick scares this father of 2 young children"

When u have an enemy the most effective tactic is overwhelming force.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

seinfeldrules33
05-26-2004, 07:47 PM
Agree with MattUSMC 100%.

-----------------------------
-=|DMA|=- S.R.

"Im Cosmo Kramer, the assman!"

steelyglint42
05-27-2004, 12:59 AM
matt I agree with you that overwhelming force is sometimes a necessary evil however the original question was could 9-11 have been stopped & I still say no matter the strength arrayed against them al-qaeda would not have been phased by it these are not people who care about life in any respect. I am happy that The U.K can consider the U.S an ally and would happily fight alongside Americans anytime but I do think that George Bush is a danger to the world simply because he is so keen to start a fight.

jimmyeyes
05-27-2004, 01:04 AM
Moore won what a joke, how hard is it to win at a anti-American festive with an anti- American movie I'm not saying its a bad movie just saying its not a surprise.

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MattUSMC67
05-27-2004, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote steelyglint42

"the original question was could 9-11 have been stopped & I still say no matter the strength arrayed against them al-qaeda would not have been phased by it these are not people who care about life in any respect"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think alqaeda couldnt have been stoped if we invaded afganhistan because the cell's were already in place in the US and would have probly carried out there attack anyway but I think if the CIA would have worked harder they might have been able to discover the alqaeda cell's when they were training in Florida.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "I do think that George Bush is a danger to the world simply because he is so keen to start a fight."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree for two reasons. First I believe in the over all war strategy we must be on the offense as much as possible and take the fight to the enemy in there homeland. I think this is the best strategy to win the war and maybe if we can keep the fight in the middle east more terrorist will operate there and try and attack us there instead of our cities but some will still operate in our cities I would just hope for less.

Second there are alot of Muslim extreamists that will do anything to kill Americans and personally I believe that these extreamists will kill everyone on this earth if u dont do what they say or believe what they believe even there own ppl so I think theres a good reason for the US to want to start a fight. These extreamists have killed a pregnant woman and her four daughters and they behead ppl. I dont blame Bush for whats going on in this war I blame Muslim extreamists. Also Bush cant invade a nation unless alot of Americans support it so I put the wanting to start a fight on the American ppl.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

jimmyeyes
05-27-2004, 02:01 AM
I agree with matt on the second reason there is no appeasing these Muslims extremists,they want us dead they want are families dead just for the way we live. They want us to conform to there religion and they've been around for twenty years with no sighs of stopping or even slowing down.

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Gaendaal
05-27-2004, 02:06 AM
As a Brit, I seem to have something of a different view (in some ways) than other posters (most of whom I assume are American?) although I agree completely with the "hindsight is always 20/20" statement. I remember sitting here at work when a friend went "Oh s**t, look at the news!!". I seemed that everyone in the office went to the BBC website and saw the pictures at the same time. The room went cold. Although I would hope that politicians and their supporters are trained to react, I could do nothing more than sit there and be numbed by horror. How do you make quickdraw decisions with massive ramifications after seeing something like that?

On the other hand, the question is "Could 9/11 have been prevented?" and the answer is "I don't know". Perhaps it could.

More safety checks in airports and on planes could have helped (Please God not armed "Air Marshalls". That's the dumbest idea in the world) but you could throttle someone with your shoelaces if you wanted. My girlfriend is legally allowed to take poison and intravenous delivery devices onto any public transport (she's diabetic and has to carry insulin and hypodermics - a barrel full of insulin into your neck would limit your ability to fly a plane. Or breath.) and no amount of searches will stop that.

Tightening down on immigration (which the US seem to be obsessed with) could have stopped those particular terrorists getting into the country but, let us not forget, the Oklahoma bomber was a "legit" American. In the same way that not all foreigners are terrorists, not all terrorists are foreigners.

I think that the main thing that could've stopped 9/11 would be nothing short of a radical overhaul of US foreign policy. It sad but true that America (Note: I say "America" not "Americans", I'm making an explicit distinction between the state and the populace here) is hated by large amounts of the world's population and this is not helped by the US Government's seeming attitude that the rest of the world is there for their own use. Specifically, an even handed approach to the issues in Palestine would have helped Arab/US relations massively. For right or wrong (for my money, both Israel and Palestine's stances are wrong in so many ways), providing a meaningful, impartial middleman between Arafat and Sharon would've have gone somewhere to helping quash what many in the Middle East see as the US's persistent backing of an intruder nation.

Oh but I forget, the Palestinians are terrorists, aren't they? And we're against terror, aren't we? We're waging a war against it (which seems somewhat bizarre to me). We wouldn't want to see a militia made of the lower social ranks rising up against the standing Government, would we? Unless it's called the American War of Independence...

An extreme example, perhaps, but from a British government point of view, the US soldiers were nothing more than an upstart rabble, than terrorists. Imagine if Britain had MOABs or even nukes then?

I'm rambling now and have been talking for sooooo long but I have one more point to make.

"I dont blame Bush for whats going on in this war I blame Muslim extreamists."

MATTUSCM, that is just so wrong is so many ways. Firstly, it's "extremists" and there is such a thing as punctuation you know but that's by the by. What Bush doesn't seem to understand is that he's CREATING the extremists with every single one of his actions. Every time a family has their father killed (or their mother or whoever) a spark of hatred is created in the others, and who wouldn't fight against someone attacking them? Every time Bush doesn't speak out against another Israeli incursion or a "removal" of Palestinian "militants", the extremist leaders have more fuel for their propaganda.

It's like freaking Command and Conquer! Every time Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or Rice open their mouths another suicide bomber comes popping out of a tent.

"I will vote for the candidate who has the heart to launch a Nuclear strike on our enemies if the need be."

*sighs and shakes head*

Anyway, thanks for your time and I hope you read this in the spirit it was written. I'm not anti-American, watching those planes hit the WTC chilled me to the very bone, but I think that this is a time of crisis and we (the "Western" nations as a whole) are going the wrong way. Completely the wrong way.

jimmyeyes
05-27-2004, 02:43 AM
America is fighting the war on terror all wrong in every respect, the french and the British have been fighting terrorists for decades and are quiet good at it. besides Iraq is not a war on terror it's America showing the middle east "look at us" that's all.

the blame for 9/11 lies on horrific and poorly crafted American foreign policy of the last twenty years, what this has created is a clearly draw line of hate....hate for the western world you can't fix twenty years of hate and death over night.


in some respects a agree with Gaendaal (the "Western" nations as a whole) are going the wrong way, how we let corporations rape the world we have governments that miss spend millions of dollars as people starve in the streets. until money takes a back seat to people and the well being of the world we will be going the "wrong" way.

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steelyglint42
05-27-2004, 04:35 AM
I'm an Englishman too and agree completely with Gaendaal. The American and indeed Western world as a whole need to look at what we are doing to our fellow human beings, American foreign policy seems to have lost it's way. Also when did we stop thinking for ourselves and start believing the politicians? To quote mark Twain again "Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." The words of an American, or was it "the American" ? The Muslim Extremists are but a small faction and do not represent Muslims as a whole however if America and her Allies including the U.K continue to slaughter innocents and call it collateral damage the hatred will continue to be fueled.

By the way Matt are you actually a Marine?

"Between believing a thing and thinking you know is only a small step and quickly taken." Mark Twain

MattUSMC67
05-27-2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote Gaendaal

MATTUSCM, that is just so wrong is so many ways. Firstly, it's "extremists" and there is such a thing as punctuation you know but that's by the by."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont take the time to use proper puctuation on the internet, I can type faster without it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"What Bush doesn't seem to understand is that he's CREATING the extremists with every single one of his actions."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everyone understands that but that doesent mean u dont go try to kill the enemy before they get to your country. There were muslim extremists who hated Americans long before Bush was here and even if someone else was president they to would be creating the same amount of terrorists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Every time a family has their father killed (or their mother or whoever) a spark of hatred is created in the others, and who wouldn't fight against someone attacking them?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Civ casualties in war have always happened and will always happen but if we dont go over there and fight them then we will have to fight in our cities.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Every time Bush doesn't speak out against another Israeli incursion or a "removal" of Palestinian "militants", the extremist leaders have more fuel for their propaganda."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Israelis have a right to defend themselves. Israel has tried alot to have peace with the Palestinians. Back during Clintons administration Prime Minister Burock offered Arafat alot more than what Sharon is now offering and he refused. Palestinians dont want peace they want the annihilation of the Jews.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote USMC "I will vote for the candidate who has the heart to launch a Nuclear strike on our enemies if the need be."

Quote Gaendaal "*sighs and shakes head*"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In order to decide wether we have to use our Nuclear weapons or not u have to think about where the future of this war is going. When I think about that I believe sadly that this war will come down to the use of our nuclear weapons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"we (the "Western" nations as a whole) are going the wrong way. Completely the wrong way."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree I think we need to be on the offense. Attack the enemy in there homeland. Think of it as strategic bombing. We cant win this war by sitting here waiting to be attacked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote jimmyeyes

"America is fighting the war on terror all wrong in every respect, the french and the British have been fighting terrorists for decades and are quiet good at it. besides Iraq is not a war on terror it's America showing the middle east "look at us" that's all."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly disagree, as I said I believe we need to be on the offense. I can give lots of reasons why the Iraq war was needed. Saddam was a bad guy tortured, raped, murdered ppl and so on. Liberate the Iraqis give them a better life and so on. Prevent Saddam from harboring and supporting terrorists. Use Iraq as a staging area to invade Iran and attack Syria if we have to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"in some respects a agree with Gaendaal (the "Western" nations as a whole) are going the wrong way, how we let corporations rape the world we have governments that miss spend millions of dollars as people starve in the streets. until money takes a back seat to people and the well being of the world we will be going the "wrong" way."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is capitalism, companies have the right to charge whatever amount they want for there product. If u dont like it dont buy there product then if enough ppl dont buy it they will be forced to lower prices to attract buyers. I know prices are high for alot of things but companies have the right to charge whatever they want. Thats freedom. I agree tho that theres alot of greed in the world.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote steelyglint42

"The Muslim Extremists are but a small faction and do not represent Muslims as a whole however if America and her Allies including the U.K continue to slaughter innocents and call it collateral damage the hatred will continue to be fueled.

By the way Matt are you actually a Marine?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Civ casualties in war have always happened and will always happen. Our Govn. has the obligation to act in the interest of its citizens. We cant win this war if we dont go over there and fight.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

MattUSMC67
05-27-2004, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote jimmyeyes
"the blame for 9/11 lies on horrific and poorly crafted American foreign policy of the last twenty years, what this has created is a clearly draw line of hate....hate for the western world you can't fix twenty years of hate and death over night."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG I strongly disagree. No matter what the American Govn has done in the middle east its no excuse to murder 3,500 innocent ppl and u forget all the good things weve done there. Humanitarian aid, forgiving $15 billion Egyptian debt and a whole lot of other countries and what do we get for it just a bunch of ppl who hate us. I believe that most of there hatred comes from the conditions they live in. Poverty, bad economies, living under dictators, not much prosperity, and generally lesser quality of life than the western world.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

Haldrix
05-27-2004, 05:03 PM
I'm not agree with you jimmyeyes, this Festiv is only about movies (and all kind of movies). Remember that the jury was composed of american people like Quentin Tarantino..
Another thing, please stop saying that french people are anti-American. We (yes i am http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif) clearly don't accept most of Bush' govmnt decision that's all !!...

if you ask me why i'm browsing UK/US forums, well it's just because the community is the most active (about FC in this case).

A bient├┬┤t !

seinfeldrules33
05-27-2004, 08:12 PM
In a short, simple rebuttal all I have to say is this: I would rather be fighting the terrorists in Iraq then in NYC. Our soldiers are much more qualified to fight, and defend themselves against their cowardly attacks.

Why is France overly Anti- American? Well it may have to do with defacing the American graves at Normandy, openly supporting Saddam in many ways (buying his oil) and then going behind our back to get UN support against us. We had your back in WWII without question, where is the respect?

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"Im Cosmo Kramer, the assman!"

Gaendaal
05-28-2004, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seinfeldrules33:
openly supporting Saddam in many ways (buying his oil) and then going behind our back to get UN support against us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean like the US (and the UK, sadly) did when it was selling conventional, biological and chemical weaponry to Iraq? Like the US did when it was selling electro-shock batons and other "pro-enforcement coersion devices" (or whatever they call tools of torture these days) to Iraq?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We had your back in WWII without question, where is the respect?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, that'll be the unquestioning support you gave *at the end of the war* after you'd stopped listening to your own fascist groups.

http://www.monkeyhouse-recordings.co.uk
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jimmyeyes
05-28-2004, 01:49 AM
quote: Matt
"OMG I strongly disagree. No matter what the American Govn has done in the middle east its no excuse to murder 3,500 innocent ppl and u forget all the good things weve done there. Humanitarian aid, forgiving $15 billion Egyptian debt and a whole lot of other countries and what do we get for it just a bunch of ppl who hate us. I believe that most of there hatred comes from the conditions they live in. Poverty, bad economies, living under dictators, not much prosperity, and generally lesser quality of life than the western world."
---------------------------------------------------


well....3,500 Americans lives lost on that horrible day is a drop in the pond to the hundreds of thousands lost in the last couple of decades for which American bombs have been at fault. On 4/20 99 president Clinton dropped "smart bombs" on kosivo hitting hospitals, schools and church's killing hundreds of innocent people. But is it's all in the name of war right? some might say that 9/11 was an act of war and the people killed were bi-products of that war. do you think this anger from the middle east is coming out of the bleu well then you are sadly very wrong, America is angry and defending it self because of the attacks of 9/11 the best way it know how preemptive war. What about the men women and children that have lost families or loved one's because of American accidents.

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Gaendaal
05-28-2004, 02:38 AM
Reply mainly for MATTUSCM...

Hi, thanks for your comments. I'm glad you saw my post for what it was and didn't flame. I found your replies quite thought-provoking.

I think that we're probably at completely different ends of the spectrum on this. You believe that "the enemy" has to be stopped at all costs and the war must be taken to them. I believe that we need to give and take, to remove the *need* for there to be an enemy.

"The Israelis have a right to defend themselves."

By that statement, then the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too. In fact, they have *more* of a reason to defend themselves. (modern) Israel is a created country that has taken land away from the Palestinians and surrounding (Arab) countries. The justification that ancient Israel was in that area doesn't stand (for me at least). Do I invade France because Calais used to be English?

"When I think about that I believe sadly that this war will come down to the use of our nuclear weapons."

As above, all you're doing is justifying the enemy's use of non-conventional weapons. Let alone the fact that nukes are and remain illegal (nukes are a weapons of terror designed to cause mass, indiscriminate and persistent devastation. This is banned under international law), their use will take this current conflict to the next level, not end it.

The US seems to think that terrorism can be cowed by violence but all that is happening is that it's breeding more terrorists. You can't fight terrorism with guns and bombs just as you can't fight injustice, hunger, poverty and oppression.

http://www.monkeyhouse-recordings.co.uk
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MattUSMC67
05-28-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote jimmyeyes
"well....3,500 Americans lives lost on that horrible day is a drop in the pond to the hundreds of thousands lost in the last couple of decades for which American bombs have been at fault."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm asuming your talking about us killing innocents in WW2. What would you have liked us to do stay out of the war and let Germany take over Europe and Japan take over Asia. There will always be the accidental killing of civs but that doesent mean you dont attack. A country has to decide is the war worth the amount of innocent civs u will kill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"On 4/20 99 president Clinton dropped "smart bombs" on kosivo hitting hospitals, schools and church's killing hundreds of innocent people."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didnt pay all that much attention to the war in Kosovo, are u sure they were acctually hospitals and schools? Most of the time the enemy will say that the targets we hit were hospitals and schools. Malosavich was commiting genocide what do u want us to do sit by and watch? Again a country has to decide is the war worth the amount of innocent civs u will kill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"But is it's all in the name of war right? some might say that 9/11 was an act of war and the people killed were bi-products of that war."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two problems with this, one alqeada intentionally killed innocent civs we dont go around intentionally tageting innocent ppl. Two not only will alqeada kill innocent American civs but they will also kill there own innocent ppl.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"do you think this anger from the middle east is coming out of the bleu well then you are sadly very wrong,"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its funny how muslims are always angry at America and Israel and care so much about Israel opressing the Palestinians but care so little about Saddam opressing and brutalizing 20 million Iraqis. Saudi Arabia and Egypt should have been the ones to lead a coalition to forcefully remove Saddam but they would never do that. Its up to the US.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"America is angry and defending it self because of the attacks of 9/11 the best way it know how preemptive war. What about the men women and children that have lost families or loved one's because of American accidents."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again a country has to decide is the war worth the amount of innocent civs u will kill. I think the Afgan and Iraq war were worth it in this respect. I dont know how many Afganies the Taliban killed every year but it was probly more than the amount of innocent ppl we killed in that war and now the Afganies have a good future to look forward to. I'm positive that Saddam killed more Iraqis every year than we killed. Now because of the war mass graves will no longer be filled and Iraqis have a future.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote Gaendaal

"Hi, thanks for your comments. I'm glad you saw my post for what it was and didn't flame."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoy an intelligent conversation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"I believe that we need to give and take, to remove the *need* for there to be an enemy."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also think we need to remove a need for there to be an enemy but I believe its not going to happen. Sometimes no matter what u do and no matter how nice u are ppl will still hate u and try to kill u.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"By that statement, then the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too. In fact, they have *more* of a reason to defend themselves. (modern) Israel is a created country that has taken land away from the Palestinians and surrounding (Arab) countries. The justification that ancient Israel was in that area doesn't stand (for me at least)."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I watched a documetary about this on the discovery channel and they said that when Israelis began moving there in the late 1940's that no one was there and they also said that most of the Palestinian land was stolen by Egypt and Jordan. Why dont the Palestinians demand for there land back from Egypt and Jordan? Its not going to happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"As above, all you're doing is justifying the enemy's use of non-conventional weapons. Let alone the fact that nukes are and remain illegal (nukes are a weapons of terror designed to cause mass, indiscriminate and persistent devastation. This is banned under international law), their use will take this current conflict to the next level, not end it."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our Govn. is obligated to defend our country with every weapon in its arsenal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The US seems to think that terrorism can be cowed by violence but all that is happening is that it's breeding more terrorists."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We cant win this war unless we attack. This is the basics of military strategy.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

jimmyeyes
05-28-2004, 03:40 AM
I like the way you post a conversation Matt IT'S orderly and easily to read which is something that can't always be said for mine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I say we agree to disagree this could go on for a while{religion debate}
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

...for now any way

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purple alert! purple alert!...........what's a purple alert?.......well...it's not as bad as a red alert but a bit worse then a blue alert, maybe a mauve alert

MattUSMC67
05-28-2004, 12:32 PM
Thank u, agreed.

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
http://home.comcast.net/~mattusmc67/wsb/media/109146/site1058.jpg

Praxus
05-29-2004, 03:50 PM
It is amazing how people refuse to identify our enemy. Our enemy is not terrorism, it is Militant Islam and their millions of passive legions.

They are not fighting because they are defending themselves from the United States, they are fighting because they see it as their duty to God. To kill the infedels. You can not reason with them, the only thing they understand is brute force.

Our principle enemy is not Iraq or Afghanistan it is Iran!

Iran is the "Germany" of Militant Islam. In order for us to win this so called war is to destroy the believers of this philosophy at it's source.

steelyglint42
05-30-2004, 05:28 AM
Praxus,

You surely cannot be serious? Iran compared to Germany and in the same post to advocate that we wipe out believers of this philosophy? Pot calling the kettle? Germany & the Jews? "Passive Legions" and in the same post that they are fighting because it is their duty to God does passive not mean inactive? Genocide is what you appear to be advocating, and as previous posts suggested you cannot tar all muslims with the same brush. I don't know the solution but mass killing certainly is not it.

"Between believing a thing and thinking you know is only a small step and quickly taken." Mark Twain

Praxus
08-01-2004, 01:45 PM
Since when have all muslims believed in Militant Islam?

I certainly didn't say that.

Thesharpshooter34
08-01-2004, 02:01 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif

Digging up old threads like this is spamming you know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

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Praxus
08-01-2004, 02:06 PM
Really?

Why?

Thesharpshooter34
08-01-2004, 02:10 PM
Actually sorry, I take that back seeing as you were asked a question.

Bit late to be replying though, 2 months later?

Soz again

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CletisMckloskey
08-01-2004, 06:24 PM
my awnser to all of this is...go see farenheight 9/11. if you have seen it go se it again. if you havent go see it. it will answer alot of things here.

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