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XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:27 PM
As the new Community Manager for Rainbow Six, one of my goals is to get information to you as soon as it is available. With this in mind, I would like to inform the community that the 1.5 patch will be available sometime in the next week. Please see below for some preliminary release notes:

Added an Operative SDK.

CD-Keys stored in the registy are now encrypted.

Fixed some problems related to the "Immediate Firing Animations" option. Including the 3 round burst animation that was not exactly representing the shooting of three rounds and the pump shotgun empty reload sound that was missing.

When connecting to PunkBuster enabled server, cancelling the connection then immediately re-trying to connect will generate various error messages.

Modified Raven Shield codes so that it won't time out as easily when waiting for CD-Key authorization.

Solved some problems related to switching players in coop mode that most often would result in crashes or other strange behaviors.

PunkBuster messages that are too long to fit on one line will wrap at the end of line to the second. Before they were simply truncated.

Fixed a bug where the camera could get stuck in a certain position from time to time, usually at the start of a round.

Fixed the case where "RavenShield" was displayed instead of the name of the map in the server list.

Fixed the intro videos that would still play even when the game was started through a game service like Ubi.com, GameSpy or the All Seeing Eye.

On a minimal install the intro Ubi logo was not played.


More information to follow as it becomes available.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe


Message Edited on 12/04/0312:27PM by BulletTooth.50

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:27 PM
As the new Community Manager for Rainbow Six, one of my goals is to get information to you as soon as it is available. With this in mind, I would like to inform the community that the 1.5 patch will be available sometime in the next week. Please see below for some preliminary release notes:

Added an Operative SDK.

CD-Keys stored in the registy are now encrypted.

Fixed some problems related to the "Immediate Firing Animations" option. Including the 3 round burst animation that was not exactly representing the shooting of three rounds and the pump shotgun empty reload sound that was missing.

When connecting to PunkBuster enabled server, cancelling the connection then immediately re-trying to connect will generate various error messages.

Modified Raven Shield codes so that it won't time out as easily when waiting for CD-Key authorization.

Solved some problems related to switching players in coop mode that most often would result in crashes or other strange behaviors.

PunkBuster messages that are too long to fit on one line will wrap at the end of line to the second. Before they were simply truncated.

Fixed a bug where the camera could get stuck in a certain position from time to time, usually at the start of a round.

Fixed the case where "RavenShield" was displayed instead of the name of the map in the server list.

Fixed the intro videos that would still play even when the game was started through a game service like Ubi.com, GameSpy or the All Seeing Eye.

On a minimal install the intro Ubi logo was not played.


More information to follow as it becomes available.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe


Message Edited on 12/04/0312:27PM by BulletTooth.50

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:32 PM
Thank you very much for the info but there are still a few bugs that need to be fixed.
1. The frag lock bug is still around and happens at least once every 15 rounds.
2. The ladder bug, when you try to get on a ladder you get stuck there and can not do anything but wait to die or open the console and type suicide.
3. The assault rifle bug, you can sit there and fire off a thousand rounds but none of the bullets register, this forces you to switch to your secondary and hope for the best.
Thanks again, it's nice to see that there is envolvement between the company and end users.

http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:33 PM
Cool, glad this stuff's going to be fixed. But what about gameplay? Is anything going to be done about that in 1.5? Like fixing gun bugs/frag locks and NETCODE!

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Oh I forgot to ask,

"I would like to inform the community that the 1.5 patch will be available sometime in the next week."

How accurate is this information on the release of the patch .... we all know about the delays that UBI gives. I this patch goin to be here in the next week or next 2-3 weeks?

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:38 PM
ok

very "interesting"

but whats about NETCODE-improvements, nade and ladderbugs, and the demofunction... the most important things for an good onlinegame... but i think ubisoft ignores that...?

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XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:46 PM
As I am striving to bring the community "no bull," I generally will only give a timeframe if it is firm. Otherwise, I will give no timeframe so as to avoid getting anyone's hopes up and letting them down in the event of a delay. I know what a letdown it can be to hear one date for something only to have it pushed, delayed, etc.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
Community Manager


Message Edited on 12/04/03â 12:47PM by BulletTooth.50

Message Edited on 12/04/0305:01PM by Witness

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 09:53 PM
sorcerer wrote:

"but whats about NETCODE-improvements, nade and ladderbugs, and the demofunction... the most important things for an good onlinegame... but i think ubisoft ignores that...? "


BulletTooth.50 wrote:
"- As I am striving to bring the community "no bull," I
- generally will only give a timeframe if it is firm.
- Otherwise, I will give no timeframe so as to avoid
- getting anyone's hopes up and letting them down in
- the event of a delay. I know what a letdown it can
- be to hear one date for something only to have it
- pushed, delayed, etc.


ok.. ubisoft ignores it.. ;/

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Message Edited on 12/04/0304:59PM by Witness

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 10:41 PM
Major_A Wrote:
1. Frag lock bug happens every 15 seconds


OK maybe if you don't exaggerate like that they would take you seriously


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Message Edited on 12/04/0304:59PM by Witness

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 10:46 PM
You've misquoted him. He wrote "15 rounds".

Armed_and_DWI wrote:
- Major_A Wrote:
- 1. Frag lock bug happens every 15 seconds
-
-
- OK maybe if you don't exaggerate like that they
- would take you seriously
-
- <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
- style="border-collapse: collapse"
- bordercolor="#111111" id="AutoNumber1">
- <tr>
-
- <td>
-
- <img
- src="http://68.193.149.197/armed_and_dwi/avatar808
- 0.gif"></td>
- <td>
-
- <font size="1" color="gray">300 W Antec power supply
- || Asus A7N8X Deluxe motherboard 1003
- 3*256 MB PC2700 Crucial DDRAM ( 7 3 3 3 ) || MSI
- GeForce4 Ti4200 128 MB AGP 4x 43.45
- AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1333 MHz ( 133 * 10.0 ) ||
- SLK-600 heat sink + Sunon 60 mm fan
- Primary IDE: Master - Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 60 GB
- 7200 RPM HD, Slave - empty
- Secondary IDE: Master - Toshiba 40x DVD-ROM, Slave -
- Plextor 16/10/40A CD-RW
- Windows XP Professional SP1a || KDS Visual
- Sensations VS-195e 19" monitor
- Logitech Z-560 400 W 4.1 speakers || ATX Mid Tower
- case</font></td>
- </tr>
-
- </table>
-
- <a
- href="http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAV
- ENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1
- &SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=Armed_and_DWI&SELE
- CT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELE
- CT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT
- _DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=25&y=5
- ">See My World Ladder Retail Version Rank</a>

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2003, 11:39 PM
Learn to read before you criticize. Last night I was playing and got 2 in a 10 Round rotation. Went to the next map and got the ladder bug and assault rifle bug.

http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 12:44 AM
well im very glad to here of 1.5/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


now trying to downlaod that patch in a resonable time frame/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 01:10 AM
Major_A wrote:
- 1. The frag lock bug is still around and happens at
- least once every 15 rounds.


Caused by lag. I haven't had it once in the past few months, though /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- 2. The ladder bug, when you try to get on a ladder
- you get stuck there and can not do anything but wait
- to die or open the console and type suicide.

Again, caused by lag. I haven't had it either in a few months. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- 3. The assault rifle bug, you can sit there and
- fire off a thousand rounds but none of the bullets
- register, this forces you to switch to your
- secondary and hope for the best.
- Thanks again, it's nice to see that there is
- envolvement between the company and end users.


I'm sure this one is caused by firing your weapon after the round, which isn't supposed to be done. I used to always fire my weapon after a round, and got the bug a lot. Once I stopped doing that, I haven't had it since.

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UBI, RELEASE THE SDK!!!

-Atlantis

Message Edited on 12/04/0305:10PM by CHAOS-Atlantis

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 01:13 AM
Why dont you guys cut him some slack? He just came on here and already your flaming him. Give him a chance already. Thanks for the update.

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:06 AM
Please explain in terms that I can understand how lag causes the Frag/Ladder bug?

http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:25 AM
Major_A wrote:
- Please explain in terms that I can understand how
- lag causes the Frag/Ladder bug?


From what I understand is, it is NOT lag per say, but packet loss. You can get packet loss without experiencing lag. There are plently of other games out there that have circumvented this problem of dropped packets by not making any given action performed, i.e. climbing a ladder, 100% reliant on successful transmission. In other words, if you start to climb a ladder and a lose some packets, the game doesn't know what to do so you get stuck. It's most definitely a short-coming in the code design.

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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:31 AM
What's an "Operative SDK"? Obviously it's not the full SDK we've all been waiting for. Does it just allow you to change the appearance and sounds of the operatives, or am I missing something here?

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:31 AM
Major_A wrote:
- Please explain in terms that I can understand how
- lag causes the Frag/Ladder bug?

Not lag so much as packet loss / netcode. You'll note that all the bugs that we've mentioned are multiplayer issues only - they're caused by something in the way the server handles frags, ladders, etc - the most likely culprit is packet loss, so the server thinks that frag stuck in your hand has actually been thrown. Same thing with ladders - you never get stuck in the middle, you're always starting to climb, or climbing off at the top. What's strange is the frag bug never seems to occur with other types of grenades, which makes me suspect there's something in the way the server handles frags specifically that has the flaw.

As for the spectator camera lock bug, that's again network-related, because it only seems to ever happen if your loading occurs slowly - you get stuck between camera states. Probably packet loss again. Same goes for the scope bug.

The weapon bug is an interesting one, and no, its not caused by firing after a round ends - I never do that, and I've gotten it more recently. I HAVE noticed, however, that since I've switched to using an AUG it happens much more frequently, which makes me suspect that it may have something to do with individual weapon characteristics. I never got it with an FNC, and the guys on MP who use M4s have never had it either.

Granted, this is mostly speculation on my part, but network activity / packet loss appear to play big roles in the bugs, as do individual systems. Our guys NEVER get bugged on our server (the odd frag lock once in a blue moon, and the weapon bug twice), but other teams are constantly getting bugged. Our best guess is their specific internet connections dropping packets to the server.

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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 03:37 AM
Philipz wrote:
- From what I understand is, it is NOT lag per say,
- but packet loss.


Packet loss causes lag /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


I was only trying to put it in words he could understand. I didn't feel like digging up my post where I actually told exactly what causes it, so I just explained, simply, it was lag.


Simply, it's not so much the actual netcode, but rather the way the Unreal engine is. They use client/simulated code, and server/authority code. Clients will run their own simulated functions on their own machine to make the game smooth, so that its not jerky, waiting for the server to send packets. The clients all simulate what they think is going to happen next (they know grenades explode in 3 seconds, they don't need the server to tell them when the grenade is going to explode, and your computer knows when you fire to show a muzzle flash, it doesn't wait for the server, well atleast in 1.41 if you have instant fire animation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ). So your computer "simulates" you getting on the ladder or pulling the pin, but the server (which has the authority over everything) tells you that it says you aren't on it or that you haven't thrown it, because it never received that packet (and since its UDP they won't keep sending it). So the server won't let you off, because it says you aren't on it, and your computer won't let you get on it, because it says you already are, or it won't let you throw the grenade because it says the pin isn't pulled, and your computer won't let you pull the pin because it says you already did. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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UBI, RELEASE THE SDK!!!

-Atlantis

Message Edited on 12/04/0307:40PM by CHAOS-Atlantis

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 04:37 AM
Well I guess that does make sense, thanks guys/gals.

http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 05:08 AM
I am not as worried about ladder bug or frag lock. I am more worried about the bug where either you scope in for a gun and can't shoot because the gun gets stuck with its rets all the way open and can't scope out, or where YOU think it is shooting but in reality it is not, or the bug where you throw a grenade in one direction, but it flies to a totally different area or lands at your feet even though on your computer screen you saw it fly through a window, etc.

I don't know if any of those are caused by lag, but when it happens in matches, it can have a very negative effect...



Message Edited on 12/05/0304:09AM by OtB-Snowman

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 05:26 AM
Bullettooth,

I would not like to be in your shoes, but atleast you're looking in the right direction.

Something ubi needs to come out and say is that they will never be able to fix all the netcode bugs like ladder bug, frag bug, and late renders. These issues were "addressed" in previous pacthes but never actually fixed. Now that you are charged with righting this nearly sunk ship that is the RVS community, please come out and say these bugs will never be fixed instead of ignoring the problem.

I realize the financial aspect of buying a more recent engine and reworking the game isn't feasible for UBI and the forementioned bugs along with some others are hopeless to fix. But it is really disrespectful to detail fixes in the patch which are almost all non-issues as far as the game goes and skipping over the ones that people get really angry about. Snowman is right some of these bugs in a match is playing a man down basically. Its to the point where i have strategies worked out for fraglock situations... That shouldn't happen.

I wish you well and hope from now on i don't have to ask my french canadian teammates to translate the french forums for info pertintant to the much larger US market

CG

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 10:28 AM
I dont know I get frag lock in single player when i play as Filatov (Genedy) or whatever his name is alot. Sometimes it goes away when i switch to another op then come back to him. Happens with other ops to though.
I got the ladder lock 3 times on Sunday nite last. Another player got it even worse.

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:08 PM
and another Reason for being Async as Client with the Server is...
VSync off...

The Synchronisation of Client/Server is with VSync off
not bugfree.

and what happends with Vsync off and fast Machines?
Warping back all the Time (The Clients does too much, so
the Client is out of Sync, and the Server sets him back)


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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Yes, I think that 1.5 doesn't seem to address the necessary issues. But then, I think these important issues will be left to another standalone R6 game.instead of trying to amend the bugs/problems in this game.

BTW, I have not been to these forums in a long time, but I am wondering what exactly the 'SDK' is, or indeed, the Operative SDK?

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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:46 PM
Anyone considered that the "biggie" fixes could be rounded up and sorted with a patch that co-insides problems fixed & updates / found for Athena Sword?

The bugs mentioned here are deffo annoying "when" they happen, but I use dialup (dont laugh) ... and these bugs ive seen maybe 6-7 times since I got the game when it was released.

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 02:58 PM
Funny thing is, I have had maybe 2 or 3 fraglocks since the game was released. I've never had one single fraglock since the last 2 patches. I have also had a few ladderbugs, but it is very rare. (I speak only for myself btw)

Sure, these things need to be fixed, but remember, a patch at this stage is there to fix very specific issues, NOT gamplay/features. AS will do that to a larger extent.

--

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 03:27 PM
Firstly thanks for the update, its good that someone finally seems to be talking to us, but guys give him a chance first b4 u start blaming him.

i have to agree.. myself i have had very few frag locks and in fact only 1 ladder bug ever and that was a couple of days ago.... but it does seem to be that the people who do get the bugs get them very regually, so maybe that points to there own install, or there system or connection... or maybe infact 'how' they play the game..

that being said, it is up to ubi to sort the problems, but i expect as said above they will be fixed in other ways than straight patches.

we live in hope.........

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 05:06 PM
[Fixed a bug where the camera could get stuck in a certain position from time to time, usually at the start of a round]



Is that the bug where about 5 out of 10 rounds I start stuck and HAVE TO be able to lay down to the ground and get back up to get "unstuck". If there's something in the way preventing me from getting down, I'm stuck at spawn for the round. It's really really really frustrating!

Then again, I am on Dial-Up! (I have no choice, don't tell me to get High Speed, No Availibility!)

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 05:32 PM
So bullet who was you on CQC and what team were you with?

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 07:13 PM
Good Morning Everyone,

Thank you all for voicing your issues with the game. I can assure you I have passed-along the NETCODE issues emploring them to be addressed as they are the most prevalent and affect the overall enjoyment of the game. I say that as a gamer, not as a "marketing person" as some people like to think I am. I want you all to take the opportunity to voice your concerns so as I can reference them when I meet with the production and marketing teams. Please bear in mind however, I am not a producer nor a designer on the team, so the best chance we have at getting these issues addressed is to post, post, post, but doing so constructively. This way, when I do meet with the marketing and production teams, I can say 99.9% of the community (which are the true players of this game) think these issues severely affect their enjoyment of the game and must be fixed.

I apologize that I cannot give a firm answer on when or if these bugs will be fixed. I can again tell you though that I am making every effort to make your concerns and voices be heard. After all, we make this game for you, the gamers, and as the primary users of this product your concerns and issues should be the first ones heard. This may sound idealistic to some, but I firmly believe this and stand by it.

As for my R6 background for those of you who are interested, I began playing the original R6 in the Spring of '99. I soon became a member of LOD (Legion of Doom) and made the transition to Rogue Spear with them in the Spring of '00 (hardware issues prevented me from playing Rogue sooner, I was in college, so I didn't exactly have the money to upgrade that often http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). After being with LOD for a long time, I decided to move on and joined ArF (former members of Z: Zerohour), but when they disbanded, I moved on to TdB (The Dogz Bollox). I finished out my Rogue Spear days with TdB. I stopped playing competitively for about 7 months (finishing school, interning, etc.) and started up again when Raven Shield shipped last February. I joined FA (Fallen Angels) under a different nick, but ultimately had to leave for personal reasons after a few months. Now I am back and am looking forward to playing RVS with you all (and am actively searching for a new clan http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). As I am in-between living arrangements right now, it may be another month before you see me on the servers during the weekends, etc. Anyway, I apologize if this sounded long-winded but now perhaps I can establish some more credibility with the community.

Again, I look forward to serving you all and hopefully together we can rebuild (or build for that matter) a strong gaming community.

BulletTooth - out

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
<font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 07:18 PM
Casey,

Months ago UBI said they had the SA Linux server in the testing phase. That was last that was ever heard of it. Does UBI plan on releasing a SA Linux server?

Thanks,

Phil

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XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 07:36 PM
lol the fact that you showed up 2 days in a row makes you legit to me.



BulletTooth.50 wrote:
- Good Morning Everyone,
-
- Thank you all for voicing your issues with the game.
- I can assure you I have passed-along the NETCODE
- issues emploring them to be addressed as they are
- the most prevalent and affect the overall enjoyment
- of the game. I say that as a gamer, not as a
- "marketing person" as some people like to think I
- am. I want you all to take the opportunity to voice
- your concerns so as I can reference them when I meet
- with the production and marketing teams. Please
- bear in mind however, I am not a producer nor a
- designer on the team, so the best chance we have at
- getting these issues addressed is to post, post,
- post, but doing so constructively. This way, when I
- do meet with the marketing and production teams, I
- can say 99.9% of the community (which are the true
- players of this game) think these issues severely
- affect their enjoyment of the game and must be
- fixed.
-
-
- I apologize that I cannot give a firm answer on when
- or if these bugs will be fixed. I can again tell
- you though that I am making every effort to make
- your concerns and voices be heard. After all, we
- make this game for you, the gamers, and as the
- primary users of this product your concerns and
- issues should be the first ones heard. This may
- sound idealistic to some, but I firmly believe this
- and stand by it.
-
- As for my R6 background for those of you who are
- interested, I began playing the original R6 in the
- Spring of '99. I soon became a member of LOD
- (Legion of Doom) and made the transition to Rogue
- Spear with them in the Spring of '00 (hardware
- issues prevented me from playing Rogue sooner, I was
- in college, so I didn't exactly have the money to
- upgrade that often /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif ). After being with LOD for a
- long time, I decided to move on and joined ArF
- (former members of Z: Zerohour), but when they
- disbanded, I moved on to TdB (The Dogz Bollox). I
- finished out my Rogue Spear days with TdB. I
- stopped playing competitively for about 7 months
- (finishing school, interning, etc.) and started up
- again when Raven Shield shipped last February. I
- joined FA (Fallen Angels) under a different nick,
- but ultimately had to leave for personal reasons
- after a few months. Now I am back and am looking
- forward to playing RVS with you all (and am actively
- searching for a new clan /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif ). As I am in-between
- living arrangements right now, it may be another
- month before you see me on the servers during the
- weekends, etc. Anyway, I apologize if this sounded
- long-winded but now perhaps I can establish some
- more credibility with the community.
-
-
- Again, I look forward to serving you all and
- hopefully together we can rebuild (or build for that
- matter) a strong gaming community.
-
- BulletTooth - out
-
- Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe - <font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom
- Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 08:44 PM
IMO it is of paramount importance to correct the gun glitch.

everyone should be focused on this first due to the simple fact that this game is based on you shooting and killing the enemy, if you are gun glitched you might as well be a SIM in the RvS world.

Seriously , the gun glitch if it happens once is a mjor cause of concern.i know that it's rate of occurrence has increased significatly following the 1.4++ patches. This would indicate that some change(s) affected this isssue and should be looked into immediatly.

Think about if you bought a car and 5-10 % of the time you went to start it up to go out it woulndt start.would you be thrilled with your purchase? and what if the manufacture just glossed over it , i find it insulting.

llama

&lt;embed src="http://www3.telus.net/public/jezter14/misc/sigs/cue/cue.swf" quality="high" wmode= "Transparent" width="350" height="75">

Message Edited on 12/05/0307:53PM by g3.llama

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 09:31 PM
i really wish people wouldnt use the car analogy so much...

- PC Game $50 Car $15000-$20000

- PC Games have very little standards to abide by.

Look at crap games like Global Operations, Ultima 9,Gods and Generals, all the cheesy $20 "Special Forces" games that are out there, Descent to Undermountain (lets see if anyone knows that one)

They can all be a waste of money, but what can you do? Nothing.

If you sell me a faulty car, I'll sue your ***.

I know what you're trying to say, but please...try using more relevent analogies.


---------------------------------------
Games do not affect children.

I mean if pacman affected us when we were kids, we would all be running around in dark rooms munching on pills and listening to repetitive electronic music!

XyZspineZyX
12-05-2003, 11:26 PM
Well, I do have a quick fix for those of you experiencing frag lock. Don't get too exicted, but the trick I use to get out of frag lock is when it happens, hit console (tilde key) to bring it up, then hit it again to hide it. Be prepared however to run, because as soon as you hit console (tilde) the second time, you will drop the frag. I know this isn't a bug fix, but at least you can continue to play the round without suicide or getting shot... Hope this helps.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
<font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Any chance of gettin the guns in this game rebalanced...all these bug fixes seem superficial with little affect on gameplay...more like version 1.4.0.1

ex.

5.56mm is to deadly...one/ two shot kills? Pleeeease...Furthermore what good is hollowpoint in multiplayer... Can we have differant armor levels...Perhaps a more realistic damage model then the "half-moon half dead you gotta limp cause you were shot in the arm" "full-moon fully dead"

Let us pick up guns for gods sake...

The p90's damage is to weak possibly the result of being bugged http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_ravenshield_gd&id=ztbxp
(Being a stargate fan) Its like the coolest gun in the game to use but seems to be ineffective alot. (also it wouldnt unbalance the game to make the thing more deadly because its reload time (as opposed to the fast combat swap of all the other guns is negative to its perfection)

And lastly, can we have gun stat charts that realistically reflect the guns potentials...and unlisted ones, like cyclic rate for machine guns and handguns

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Go here and sign a petition to save Alaska's Wolves from be helocopter hunted
http://www.defenders.org/

Also...Please donate money to me so that i could afford a bandwidth connection.

"Why does everbody resort to lawyers and protests to resolve problems... A quicker, cheaper solution is composition C-4 liberaly applied to the headquarters building. As Al Capone once said " You can go further with a kind word and a gun, then with a kind word alone""

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XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 01:21 AM
The guns are a big concern of many players. However, I will be honest with you that gun balancing is of a lower priority than getting the frag and ladder lock bugs fixed.

While we are on the subject, I have upgraded the status of the frag and ladder bugs to "must fix." I will tell you that they will not be fixed in time for 1.5 but they are a priority for successive patches after 1.5.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
<font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 02:37 AM
Could you pass on the incredibly slow framerates when using ATI cards as well, that in particular makes the game practically useless for me.

Edit: Shoot, I meant slow framerates when using nightvision. :| Sorry, I've been screwing up posts all week.

You sound really green, but I for one, am willing to give you the chance you deserve.

<font color = "red"> "Your dungeon lies on an incline, angry creatures can not play marbles." <font color = "white">

Message Edited on 12/06/0302:10PM by Thoramir

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 02:59 AM
Thoramir wrote:
- Could you pass on the incredibly slow
- framerates when using ATI cards as well, that in
- particular makes the game practically useless for
- me.


You're going to have to give the more specific info than that Thor. I've used 2 ATI cards with this game, and the only time I ever had a framerate problem with with my previous card (an 8500) when *smoke* was out (be it frag or a smoke, but not gas). The only other framerate problems I've had were all related to netspeed settings and lag on a server.

<TABLE ALIGN=LEFT BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=5 CELLSPACING=5 RULES=NONE COLS=2 WIDTH=80%>
<TR><TD>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jakal30/nightsig.gif </TD>
<TD><font color=white size=-2>"...the Goddess could not spend all Her time persuading the
Kings and Queens of the world of the idiocy of war. Therefore
She invented tacticians..." - Diane Duane</font></TD></TR>
</TABLE>

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:00 AM
Cheers for the update.....

I think that Ubi should give away free machine guns with every 1.5 patch download... there...... ive said it.



http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc16.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:06 AM
Major_A wrote:
- Please explain in terms that I can understand how
- lag causes the Frag/Ladder bug?
-
- http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com
-

i used to have problems with ladder and frag bugs.. along with assault rifle bugs. try setting your netspeed to 20000. that's what i did and i rarely get bugs now. in console just type: netspeed 20000
now type: stat net
in the crap in green on the upper left of your screen you should read somewhere's that it shows netspeed being 20000.

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:16 AM
- 5.56mm is to deadly...one/ two shot kills?
- Pleeeease...

no offense, but exactly when did 5.56mm NATO round stop being deadly enough to kill people in one shot? and even if it dont kill em, the SA80 round is designed to "rattle" around untill it stops...... after something like that, even if you are alive, you dont get up and run about, your more likley to urinate on yer combats.

theres a good idea for the next patch..... if you get shot and survive you got a one in 5 chance that you might "give birth to a baby otter" or just accidently "drain the main vein"and then have the appropiate brown stain / wet patch texture.


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc16.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:45 AM
I'm just glad there is a patch being released, along with part of the SDK. I'm really looking forward to the full SDK. It makes me think of all the mods for rogue spear. I loved those, NATO, LWM, BSW etc. I hope someone makes a mod that makes the multiplayer a bit more like rogue spear, as in you can select your armour and in survival your camo etc. But yeah improved netcode is a big thing, but i do hope that some serious balancing of the guns does occur in the future. Oh well great to see someone incharge of these forums who is a RS player.

<hr>

<MARQUEE BGCOLOR="#FG0000" LOOP="infinite"
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <font size="6">[b]Any Time, Any Where, Your Pizza Will Be There /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:56 AM
The other day I start a multiplayer coop game on my PC [multiplayer/lan], and got the fraglock bug while attempting to throw a flashbang [I guess technically that would be 'flashlock']. Note that I am the only PC on my 'lan'...I was the server and client. Packetloss, eh?

I would say that fraglock/ladder bugs and weapon issues like shooting blanks or not being able to reload should take priority over things like the serverlist not displaying the right map for a server.

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 03:58 AM
Will the 1.5 patch fix the problem of how you can not do join by ip unless its on the default port?

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 04:03 AM
how about you type in the port that the server is running on with the ip? It always works for me.
XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX:XXXXX

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p1e620cd395c91d7e43083a19a0db6a20/fb058cbe.jpg

|OWNT|

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 04:46 AM
actually i correct myself i meant that will outside game browser (the all-seeing eye) which use join by ip but when the server is not on default port it will not join the server i want it to

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 06:40 AM
- no offense, but exactly when did 5.56mm NATO round
- stop being deadly enough to kill people in one shot?
- and even if it dont kill em, the SA80 round is
- designed to "rattle" around untill it stops......

Pfffft...if by rattle, you mean tumble...all bullets longer then their diameter do this...and not just modern bullets for that matter...hmm i remember someone saying that the SA80 jams and is notorious for bustin firing pins...

I did a little research in the Nato Emergency War Surgery Manual...*cough* 5.56 isn't as deadly as ravenshield portrays...atleast with a bullet or two in non vital regions *cough*

here's a is the 5.56mm M855...

http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/images/Fig12.gif

You will notice that it takes approx. 11cm before the bullet begins to tumble...(that tunnel wound is thinner then a pencil)...and occasionally the bullet will break in half ...It's laughable to think a wound cavity with this bullet occurs perfect even half of the time...

Furthermore, "The smaller bullets of the new generation Assault Rifles (M-193, AK-74, M-855) are susceptible to deflection and disturbance of their point-forward flight by intermediate targets such as foliage. This was not the case with the previous generation of larger and slower projectiles. This can result in large yaw angles at impact and a shallower location in the body of maximum tissue disruption."


Now for real bullets...and the reason why everyone likes scoopin up ak's in Americas Army /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This is the 7.62mm Soft Point (or what happens when someone takes a standard bullet and rubs down its tip with a file like so many people do...)
http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/images/Fig11.gif


Here's FMG...which is tons less impressive...but such is the life of somethin meant for penetration

http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/images/Fig07.gif



Hmm...These wounds are all nice but i was unable to find what they look like when they impact and penetrate armor...

Lastly, i don't pretend to know everything...all i wanted to prove is...if you use 5.56...be prepared to fire multiple times cause one bullet wont kill unless you hit them in the spine or head...

p.s. what the heck is up with the pistol bullets in this game...the 9mm feals almost same as 45 and they shouldnt both be exceptionally useless against anyone with a medium, and dare i say light, vest.. lol this game is messed up

Credits:
http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/ch02/02Projectiles.html
http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/ch02/02Discussion.html
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http://www.groups.sfahq.com/images/crest_animated.gif

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Go here and sign a petition to save Alaska's Wolves from be helocopter hunted
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Also...Please donate money to me so that i could afford a bandwidth connection.

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Message Edited on 12/06/0305:58AM by Vilkacls

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 08:18 AM
man this about 6 months ago would have avoided all this b s.



BulletTooth.50 wrote:
- Well, I do have a quick fix for those of you
- experiencing frag lock. Don't get too exicted, but
- the trick I use to get out of frag lock is when it
- happens, hit console (tilde key) to bring it up,
- then hit it again to hide it. Be prepared however
- to run, because as soon as you hit console (tilde)
- the second time, you will drop the frag. I know
- this isn't a bug fix, but at least you can continue
- to play the round without suicide or getting shot...
- Hope this helps.
-
- BulletTooth
-
- Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe - <font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom
- Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 09:45 AM
more ubi BS i stopped with this game off the bad fps

and what do they do they gone fix more BS bugs

Omfg thats it i had,t with this ubi support never and ever a ubi game again

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 09:52 AM
thanks for the communication, its all i ask.


one question, is an 'operative' sdk a full sdk or a preliminary sdk? glad to hear anything about the sdk though, i want some mods http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uk-acts.com/asp/acts/z/357.jpg


Bernard says> "*sigh*, someone has to get ubis s@ite back together and get the patch ball rolling once more."



UKA clansite forum:
http://www.uk-army.com/forum/

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 08:15 PM
Sorry Ghost, I edited my post as I meant to say slow FPS when nightvision is turned on. Sleep deprivation will do that kind of thing to you.

<font color = "red"> "Your dungeon lies on an incline, angry creatures can not play marbles." <font color = "white">

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 11:54 PM
How often do you guys get those bugs anyway? I've been playing for what 2-3 months now, and i've had the fragbugs and the ladder bug max 5-6 times each, once when i used my scope i saw the face of some guy in my scope, really weird, and i don't even know what the assault rifle bug is...

Of course these things should not happen, but with 0.0x chance of happening it is not so bad.
If you have never programmed before, you don't realise how hard or frustrating it is...

I have a course of JAVA at man, if i ever get my programs to work, it is still with tons of bugs, so...

Oh hell, UBI just need to work more on their communication skills!

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 02:43 AM
Vilkacls wrote: Pfffft...if by rattle, you mean tumble...

yes i suppose i did......

still .... i wouldnt wanna be shot by one.....

cheers anyway for the technical data, very interesting


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc16.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 05:24 AM
Well, I don't think I've had any of the other bugs, but I get the "crappy framerate while using nightvision bug" EVERY time I try to use nightvision and it happens, I generally go from framerates higher than my refresh rate will support to 10FPS.

<font color = "red"> "Your dungeon lies on an incline, angry creatures can not play marbles." <font color = "white">

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 06:58 AM
so the patch is comming soon?

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XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 10:05 AM
next tues the 9th.



mp3vd wrote:
- so the patch is comming soon?
-
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- /a> </center> -
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-
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- Special Ops: Expert Assassin-Zethin,The
- Smuggler-G-4ce,The Man of Many Disguises-Winsk,Loan
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- packing dual ingrams, desert eagles, ak47s and
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XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 11:50 AM
The SA80 is designed to maim not kill.

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 06:23 PM
Guns that are designed not to kill people?
hehe classic quote mate.

no offence but are you American?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc16.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 07:31 PM
i would really like 2 c some iron sights, a different gun view instead of it on the right side like your firing form the waist (it should b straight down the middle), and having the operatives not look so weird when theyr running with their rifles out 2 the side and not in front of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------
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Soldier of the Future

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Soldier of the Future

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 11:02 PM
Fix the time it takes to switch from nades to primary/secondary. Man if you are within 15 feet from someone and have a nade in your hand you are dead.
Also what someone was talking about the bullet trajectories is halfway correct. The reason that the US Army went from the M1 to the M16 is because they are lighter, have less recoil, and they found that a small round traveling at really high rate of speed will do just as much damage as a higher caliber. I own an AK-74(legal, non full auto) and they made the switch to that round for this reason. They said that during war it is better to have two people off the battlefield than one. Basically once you shoot someone with that gun it is highly unlikely that person will die immediatly so the person shooting next to them will stop shooting and drag them to a medic/safer place. The bullet comes out of the gun at a very high velocity and when it is going through the air it has yaw, which means that instead of flying like a tight spiral it is flying like a spiral that is wobbling. This means that the bullet can basically go in your stomach and come out your head. So I guess that I have to disagree with your drawings and theories on the bullets. Found this on a website and will quote it for you.
"To give you an idea on how velocity and bullet shape can make a small caliber rifle cartridge lethal, the Afghanis refered to the Russian 5.45x39mm cartridge as the "poison bullet"."

http://wayoutwest.ugs1.com

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 11:51 PM
Hmm apparently the army improved the 5.56mm...Futher research has revealed a "+p greentip penetrator" round

Here's a quote from some people that seem to know:
" It is known as the "green tip penetrator" round. It was used in the M-259 SAW but has become the std. rife round for the M-16A2. The specs are unpublished as far as I know. It must be VERY hot b/c we were warned over and over again that it is NOT for use in A1 rifles. I beleive it to be a 70gr steel core boat tail spire point at 3000-3200 fps (thats a estimate). The recoil is high for a 556 and the MZ blast is intense! It has a very distinctive "CRACK!" sound to it! The cases are heavily annealed around the shoulder and neck of the case, almost rainbow colored. The bullet canneluers are very deep and I rarely ever found a fired bullet that wasnt broken in two peices at the canneluer or very badly expanded with ragged jacket going everywhere. Its a very violent load! I have a friend that used the load in Panama against the PDF while useing M-249s. The was awarded the Bronze Star for action against the enemy and he has some real good 5.56mm +p stories. Basically, he said that one rd to the chest cavity at 100m and youre done for, real quick! Evidently you stumble, go down and do the "kicken-chicken" then die all in about 5 or 6 seconds. I asked him if a guy ever got hit then tried to return fire at him and he said NEVER! He said the 1st thing they would do is drop thier weapon and clutch the wound while running then sumble or slide like a guy slideing into home base then kick about for a few seconds then, expire! He also said, that any 5.56mm in the head, neck or spineal areas resulted in near instant death. Another thing, he said you always knew when you hit someone b/c you could see a flash of a pinkish blood-halo about a foot in dia' go flying out around the bullet impact area." http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/wwwboard/board2/messages/1240.html

Notice that this guy says early on that they were warned not to use it in the m16a1...my guess is cause of the increased pressures....Makes me wonder in how many guns featured in rvs that this thing can be fired through....Be funny if the g36k breaks down when firing it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Go here and sign a petition to save Alaska's Wolves from be helocopter hunted
http://www.defenders.org/

Also...Please donate money to me so that i could afford a bandwidth connection.

"Why does everbody resort to lawyers and protests to resolve problems... A quicker, cheaper solution is composition C-4 liberaly applied to the headquarters building. As Al Capone once said " You can go further with a kind word and a gun, then with a kind word alone""

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XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 12:07 AM
BulletTooth.50 wrote:
- While we are on the subject, I have upgraded the
- status of the frag and ladder bugs to "must fix." I
- will tell you that they will not be fixed in time
- for 1.5 but they are a priority for successive
- patches after 1.5.
-
- BulletTooth
-
- Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
- <font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom
- Clancy</font>

Here we are at patch 1.5 and these issues are only now being considered "must fix" ?

In my company, in cases where we need to make amends with a client/customer, our company president comes out of his office and personally assures our customers of our commitment to them - taking ownership for failure or neglect (real, implied, or imaginary) and renewing our future commitments ---- AKA kissing the customer's collective ***.

I guess your credibility will be established when you can get the hallowed ones out of the offices and onto these forums for an official *** kissing. I for one await this.


RubyBleu

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 01:59 AM
Will currently saved games also be patched up once the v1.5 patch is installed, or will I need to start the game again from the beginning? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


-G




----------------------------------------------------
What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup? Anyone can roast beef...

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 03:48 AM
I am just wondering if the DEVS had ballistics experts work on the physics model for RvS's arsenal. Since this is a Tom Clancy game im thinking yes. Today, computers are used in the military, civilian consumer firearms industry,and in ammunition manufacturer to design bullet casings, the projectiles, powder, everything. This is why we have such reliable firearms and ammo today. If they'd get some of the people who worked with real world firepower, RvS would have the best weapons model in an FPS ever. And it would be considered the best cooperative adversarial tactical MP FPS ever (??). Personally I think the way the gun physics are, are fine while a little off, its decent for a multiplayer game. Decent enough to have fun, we arent in boot camp are we? If they fixed the netcode/ hit detection like we've all ASKED, and not rework the gun physics RvS would still satisfy us. It'd be superior if they fixed both though. UBI knows exactly what they're doing guys. If they make enough money, their through with this game. Simple as that. Its how all game companies work. (well, i think). Some companies put more effort into their product though and care more about their customers. But when they reach their target profit after they've done all they can do to improve the game, they will quit. I Hope UBI fixes this game up in AS.

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 03:54 AM
is there gona be another patch before athenasword?

http://www.starmanage.com/minsig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 06:17 AM
BulletTooth.50 wrote:
- Well, I do have a quick fix for those of you
- experiencing frag lock. Don't get too exicted, but
- the trick I use to get out of frag lock is when it
- happens, hit console (tilde key) to bring it up,
- then hit it again to hide it. Be prepared however
- to run, because as soon as you hit console (tilde)
- the second time, you will drop the frag. I know
- this isn't a bug fix, but at least you can continue
- to play the round without suicide or getting shot...
- Hope this helps.
-
- BulletTooth
-
- Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
- <font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom
- Clancy</font>

Yeah that never works for me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



-----------------------------------------------
http://www.iceblade.onestop.net/divisi1.gif
Pitty the poor insomniacn dyslexic agnostic. He stays up all night wondering if there really is a dog.-funniest joke of all time.

<a href=http://www.fallen-angels.net/members.asp?divid=58>Fallen
Angels</a>

<a href=http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAVENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1&SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=fa_death&SELECT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELECT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT_DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=0&y=0>My ladder stats</a>

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 10:57 AM
didn't work for anyof my team but what can ya do

http://www.theheadstones.com/docssig.jpg (http://www.theheadstones.com)

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 02:48 PM
Jeez, there is allways somebody complaining about every single positive thing ... We get told that they have put the ladder/bug thing as high priority and some1 tells that this i done now ???

Anyway. Bluetooth m8, Any news about the LInux servers ? Just want to know the plan about it (If any) ...

=CNR= TestLâÂȘß (http://www.november-rain.nl)

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 05:48 PM
Sorry for the delay, Testlab. I checked-in to the SA Linux server question, but was unable to get any answer for you. Please know that I am still looking into this.

Seal, I will look into whether or not there will be another patch before Athena Sword, but I am willing to bet yes. As with the SA Linux server question, let me get back to you but know that it is on my list of inquiries.

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
<font color="#319A00">Community Manager - Tom Clancy</font>

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 06:04 PM
Bluetooth.

Thanks m8, I'm really happy seeing the progress you are doing here. I see you care about helping people out and I really appreciate it.

Sorry for the delay ?, hehe, you answer me the same day and you say sorry for the delay ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , Before you I would have only dreamed to get an answer after a week ...

Good work


=CNR= TestLâÂȘß (http://www.november-rain.nl)

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 09:54 PM
- Will currently saved games also be patched up once
- the v1.5 patch is installed, or will I need to start
- the game again from the beginning? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Anyone? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


-G



----------------------------------------------------
What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup? Anyone can roast beef...


Message Edited on 12/08/0312:56PM by Goodsport

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 12:58 AM
BulletTooth,

I and I'm sure everyone else thanks you for the effort you're putting forth. Getting those nade and ladder bugs fixed will do wonders. I noticed a post earlier that said something to the effect of "UBI not caring once they've hit their profit goal". First I'm sure this is not true, as I'm sure updating a game that you've already produced is much less costly than producing a new one. Along those lines, I'm wondering if it would help for UBI to let some of us in the community know exactly what is involved in updating the game. I think most players have the idea that fixing a nade bug or ladder bug cannot be all that difficult. I'm sure they also feel "if they know the netcode is bad, why don't they just fix it?" Maybe shedding a little light on the process(es) involved in putting out a patch would help to ease some pressure from the community. Just a thought.


LaG|Pizzaman
www.lividandgifted.com (http://www.lividandgifted.com)

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:08 AM
-"I noticed a post
- earlier that said something to the effect of "UBI
- not caring once they've hit their profit goal"

Well I seriously hope Im wrong.

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:32 AM
Hmmmm nice announcement... I think I will reinstall my RvS.

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 05:31 AM
thrill_kill_FL wrote:
- we arent in boot camp are we?

Well my reasoning is we live in the same world as the stuff that we see on tv...Odds are in each of our lives their will come a time to fight for ours or others(friends, family) lives, or a time when we will have to apply serious firstaid to ourselves or others (animal,bullet,car-crash releated, or other form of life threatening wound). This is why it's important when something like a videogame, movie, documentary, or the news, portrays something as real to get it right.

p.s. want to learn how to operate common weapons of the world and US forces and apply field-dressings and tourniquets...go play americas army...Amazing what you learn through videogames these days...

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http://www.groups.sfahq.com/images/crest_animated.gif

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Go here and sign a petition to save Alaska's Wolves from be helocopter hunted
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XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 06:15 AM
I agree. But a "simulation" is more suited for people who are planning on going to the Army or joining a swat team. The best way to acquire your knowledge is to go to the Army if you want to know that much. I saw on a TV program about how the Army is using computers more than ever before, and using videogames to train troops. Discovery channel or something. If any of us civilians needed to defend ourselves under any circumstance, we'd resort to our personal firearm for self defense. Qualify to buy you a firearm, get your CCWL (concealed carry weapon license) and get the training you need to use your gun for whatever event may occur.

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 07:02 AM
I'm ok with picking up the phone and calling the cops.