Aircraft prices [Archive] - Ubisoft Forums

XyZspineZyX

06-04-2003, 01:00 PM

Excellent picture Kovy ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

bigvette wrote:
- No joke, that what's always made me wonder why they
- would even offer the Mirage-5 to anyone for the
- prices they go for when the Rafales and Euros can't
- be much more than what their asking for their
- elderly Mirages!
-

What are you talking about ? You seem to be confusing the Mirage 5 and the Mirage 2000-5. Let me teach you a few things about non-US planes :

- The Mirage 5 is an old plane, in fact it is a simplified version of the famous Mirage III, it was made in the late 60's to be sold to small countries with not enough money to buy advanced fighters. France owned about 50 of them, but only because we bought the planes that had been built for Israel when De Gaulle decided an embargo on weapon sales to Israel after the six days war. A few of them are still flying in Belgium, but they will be retired at the end of the year. I guess other air forces are still using them around the world, because they have been sold to many countries.

About this embargo, it represented an important lack of planes for the Israelis, so they decided to build their own fighter, the Kfir, which was designed using the Mirage III plans they had "borrowed" to Dassault (without asking them...)

- The Mirage 2000-5 is a damn modern plane (it made me laugh when I read your words "elderly Mirages"...), it is the latest version of the Mirage 2000, which is herself a recent plane (it was designed in the early 80's, that's a few years after the F-16). The 2000-5 was designed in the early 90's, has multi-role capability, very modern avionics, can carry all kinds of weapons including the semi-active radar missile Mica (equivalent to Amraam and R-77). Elderly ? The French air force received its last 2000-5 a couple of years ago ! Several countries have bought some 2000-5 or are interested in buying some, like India, tell them they have chosen an "elderly" plane, you will see what they answer !

In fact, the Mirage 2000 will be sold and used during the two next decades, the 2000-5 being probably her last version, whereas the Rafale is supposed to get many further developments in the next 20-30 years, being bought by foreign countries probably in a few years (whereas France has already begun to use her, the first next-gen fighter in service, yeah !)

Just my two (Euro) cents /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (worth more than two dollar cents...)

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-04-2003, 02:48 PM

The price of the eurofighter 2000 is around 80M euros (in dollars it would be near 93 M)

Saludos!

<body>

<p align="center">http://www.gratisweb.com/mikoyan/firma.jpg

</body>

moe777

06-04-2003, 08:37 PM

Moos_tachu wrote:
- probably her last version, whereas the Rafale is
- supposed to get many further developments in the
- next 20-30 years, being bought by foreign countries
- probably in a few years (whereas France has already
- begun to use her, the first next-gen fighter in
- service, yeah !)

Actually I think you will find that the Gripen was the first Fourth Generation figter in service, not the Rafale

moe777

06-05-2003, 12:27 AM

Or was I meant to say fifth generation, now Im confusing myself, well it came before the Rafale anyway

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:10 AM

moos,

you're right, French designs are more popular!

I guess thats why Poland and South Korea chose French planes...

Pakistan also purchased some French aircraft, but the French embargoed them and parked the Pakistani's beautiful Dassaults out in the Desert.

OH YEAH, Italy is also leasing some refurbished French planes until the arrival of the Eurofighter.

Chile loves their French aircraft. In fact, they just signed a $660 mil. deal to buy 10 more of the wonderful birds.

Recently, the Chief of Air Forces from the UAE also toured the Dassault Factory to view the final assembly of his wonderful French planes on order, you know, the new Block 60 Dassaults....

In fact, There have been so many French aircraft sales lately, that we could safely say, they are the best aircraft in the world!

Adieu!

BiG R

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:26 AM

BigRSearle wrote:
- blah blah

Actually considering the price difference between the F16 and the Mirage 2000, the 2000 must be helluva good if it was chosen by so many countries over the F16, otherwise it would make no sense whatsoever to pay the extra money.

Besides you can't take example of deals which involved politics for the final decision of which plane to purchase, like S Korea did for instance.

Last but not least, the combat record of French planes in NATO operations is very good, and you can't deny that. Even though much fewer French planes are engaged than US planes, they just don't get shot down.

Maybe you dislike french planes and everything french, but try to put a little more thought in your posts swinging that way.

BTW moos, the Rafale was the second 5th gen fighter. As moe said, the Gripen was the first one to see service. Quite a feat for a country or around 8 million people!

Nic

Message Edited on 06/04/0306:32PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:28 AM

Hey where are you from Nicola10?...

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:29 AM

I'm from France... surprise!

Oh and I've got an s in my name, which means I'm a boy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Nic

Message Edited on 06/04/0306:30PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 02:02 AM

France, Paris, aeronautical engineer, working for EADS maybe? Bald with a beard?

No I'm not searching for a date. (Could've chosen another forum name such as Captain_Gologolo instead of Gloglo, this dialogue would've looked special)

And anyway I only date aeronautical engineers who work for Dassault SystÃÂ¨mes, they're way sexier, so...

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 05:48 AM

BigRSearle > you do not seem to be aware of the mirage 2000-5 sales, do you ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Recently, the Chief of Air Forces from the UAE also toured the Dassault Factory to view the final assembly of his wonderful French planes on order, you know, the new Block 60 Dassaults...."

here is the new "block 60 Dassault" BigRSearle :
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/m2000_uae4.jpg

the UAE are the first users of the mica IR missile (even before France !). For me it is the proof that the UAE trust french techno despite the fact they buy and use a lot of "state of the art" us military hardware. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

- Greece has ordered a new batch of mirage 2000-5mk2 despite the fact she will buy the eurofighter

- Taiwan have a full squadron of mirage 2000-5 and is very pround of them. By the way, these mirage seem to interest usa spy submarines a lot when they perform live mica test firings /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Quatar has some mirage 2000-5.

- India is very close to buy it

Those sales are quite good when you consider that usa try to kill Dassault military exports by all means (even in India or Brasil where they are out of the game !!)

---------------------------------------
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geforce 4 ti4200 64 mo + 44.03 drivers
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win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
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moe777

06-05-2003, 08:06 AM

Hey Kovy, how do you tell its a block 60 in that photograph - I like the Mir2k, but havnt paid too much attention to the block numbers - just wondering if theres any external distinguishing features.
And you dont know the rough unit prices for the different Mir2K versions do ya (minus all the training/spares/bear fridge/ashtray/cigarette lighter/etc/etc), I read on a web site that said it was around $22M USD, didnt say if that was first version or what, anyway any info would be cool.

BTW- Reading about the Dutch fighter contest in an old AirForces Monthly mag, the prices were $40M Euro(R&D as well I guess) for the JSF, $53M Euro for the Typhoon, and $59M Euro for the Rafale, that was back in Feb 2002. Damn the Typhoon gone up in price.

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 09:05 AM

Ooooops, that's right, I forgot the Gripen was actually the first 5th-gen fighter to see service... Shame on me ! Hope the Swedish guys will forgive me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BigRSearle wrote:

- blah blah

(Excellent Nico, I had to do it again !) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BigR, you may have better eyes than I do, so please tell me where I wrote that "French designs are more popular" and that we have "the best aircrafts in the world" ? I just can't see such statements in my post !

In fact, I just explained a few things to Bigvette, who didn't seem to know more than you about non-US planes, and believed that the Mirage 2000-5 was an "elderly" plane (whereas she made her first flight in 1990...). And as he was implying that french sales were close to zero, I answered that the two planes I was talking about had both made good export sales.

BTW, I have loved your sarcastic message, very amusing... Oh, about South Korea, don't you think that the thousands of US "military advisors" may have influenced a little the aircraft choice ? Maybe they gave a piece of "advice"...
And about Poland, everyone agrees to say they made a huge mistake chosing the F-16 whereas they are about to join the European Union, because Europe doesn't want to give them money if they use it to buy US stuff, and soon they will see the drawbacks of this decision. It's a bad symbolic decision they took, because they have shown they prefer NATO rather than EU...

Do you want me to give you the complete list of the countries which own some Mirage III, Mirage 5, Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 ? I can do it for tomorrow if you want... Quite a long work in fact...

But don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that french sales are fantastic, in fact Dassault has known several failures in the last years, and the sales are under what I think they should be. But Kovy is right, the USA are working very hard in this way, and maybe sometimes it works... Strange that the Russians don't need to use such pressures to sell their planes... Maybe they are more confident in the stuff they are trying to sell... Maybe they have good reasons to be more confident... Maybe the USA have good reasons to worry about Dassault... Maybe I'm just making free suppositions...

"Adieu" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 11:12 AM

moe777 > It's not a block 60, this was a joke about to the F-16 bk60 bought buy the EAU /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This is a mirage 2000-9, a version designed for the EAU only ! She is the most advanced mirage 2000 ever.
The EAU have ordered 62 mirage 2000-9 (32 new and 30 retrofit)

You can recognize her easily : it is writen "mirage 2000-9" under the cockpit. Moreover, only the mirage 2000-5 and -9 are able to carry the 4 mica under the fuselage.

For the price, this is very difficult to say...that depends on many many factors (number of a/c ordered, equipments/weapons wanted, other parallel contracts, politic deals etc...)

The price for a mirage 2000 is between 25 and 35M euros.

To compare :

Mirage F1 : 10-15M euros
Jaguar : 9-10M euros
Rafale M : 51 M euros

---------------------------------------
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ / 512 mo DDR 333
geforce 4 ti4200 64 mo + 44.03 drivers
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win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
hotas cougar

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 12:10 PM

There are other motives to buy french aircraft over american even if the price tags tells you otherwise.

The reason is...politics. I someone favours french aircraft over american or russian, is to keep out of their influence when it comes to national freedom to act. 1 example:

greece has so many types that overlap each others roles, making people wonder why.

Lets supose it goes for war with turkey (no, not a VS scenario discussion) the UN and the US would feel tempted to force an agrement because they are both NATO allies. Greece has some room of manuever because if the US boycots its hardware there will be still the french types, who as far the french are concerned, could be well either be giving the finger to the US, or just plain ruthless profiting as always they have donne on any conflict were thei're weapons are involved with.

"For preventig forest fires, cut down the trees" George W. Bush

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 12:21 PM

Captain_Gloglo wrote:
- France, Paris, aeronautical engineer, working for
- EADS maybe? Bald with a beard?
-
- No I'm not searching for a date. (Could've chosen
- another forum name such as Captain_Gologolo instead
- of Gloglo, this dialogue would've looked special)
-
- And anyway I only date aeronautical engineers who
- work for Dassault SystÃÂ¨mes, they're way sexier,
- so...

No I'm sorry I think you got the wrong person here. I got my hair over my head not under it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm no engineer either.

Nic

Message Edited on 06/05/0305:22AM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 12:40 PM

Nicholas, this is a long shot but you in Toulouse?

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:00 PM

Kovy, tell me if I'm wrong, the Mirage 2000-9 is in fact a two-seatter version of the 2000-5, designed especially for export, isn't it ?

Pilotasso wrote:
- or just plain ruthless profiting as
- always they have donne on any conflict were thei're
- weapons are involved with.

Hum... Did you read my words about the 50 Mirage 5 France was forced to buy because De Gaulle had decided an embargo on weapon sales to Israel after the Six-Days War ? With that conflict, we didn't make profit, and moreover we had to pay extra-planes for it...

The rest of your post is almost true, but you should have noticed that such a situation is a result of the Cold War : Until 1990, the countries belonging to the Warsaw Pact had to buy Russian aircrafts, western countries (NATO or not) were "advised" to chose US planes, and for the others (India, Brazil, S-E Asia, South America, Middle East, Africa...), chosing one of the two bigs was like showing a preference, and many of them didn't want to chose, so they bought French planes !

No big deal, I love your sig /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 01:22 PM

No, the mirage 2000-9 is a specific version for the EAU. There are both two seater and single seater of this version.

---------------------------------------
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ / 512 mo DDR 333
geforce 4 ti4200 64 mo + 44.03 drivers
MSI KT4 ultra mother board
win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
hotas cougar

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 03:43 PM

Moos_tachu wrote:
- Until 1990, the countries belonging
- to the Warsaw Pact had to buy Russian aircrafts,

Not quitehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Romania had french build helicopters IAR316(Alouette3) and IAR330 Puma. Also produced its own planes, IAR93 and Iar99 powered by RR Vipers with some western avionics even if those where not the most modern ones. Problem that even if there was the willing to buy other kind of planes , usualy the other producers had law opposing due to closeness to US.

XyZspineZyX

06-05-2003, 05:47 PM

c-ber3 wrote:
- Nicholas, this is a long shot but you in Toulouse?

No I'm not in Toulouse lol.

Are you guys trying to find where I leave to beat me up? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nic

Message Edited on 06/05/0310:48AM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 07:43 AM

Nah, I just had a French friend called nicholas. That's all. Of course, if I end up not liking you I might 'send the boys round' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 08:49 AM

tomcat1974 wrote:
-
- Moos_tachu wrote:
-- Until 1990, the countries belonging
-- to the Warsaw Pact had to buy Russian aircrafts,
-
- Not quite/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
- Romania had french build helicopters
- IAR316(Alouette3) and IAR330 Puma. Also produced its
- own planes, IAR93 and Iar99 powered by RR Vipers
- with some western avionics even if those where not
- the most modern ones. Problem that even if there was
- the willing to buy other kind of planes , usualy
- the other producers had law opposing due to
- closeness to US.
-

True. And as far as I know (tell me if I'm wrong), Tito retired Romania from the Warsaw Pact... Romania was not a satellite of USSR like other countries were, it was quite independent (just like France towards NATO and the USA /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 11:04 AM

Rafale and Gripen aren't 5th generation aircraft....

They fall into whats known as the 4+ Generation.... 5th generation aircraft will be the F-22, and JSF....

Athlon XP 2700+,Volcano 9, A7N8X Deluxe, 1024MB XMS3200LL DDR RAM, 80GB DiamondMax 9 Plus, PNY Verto GeForce 4 Ti4600, Cooler Master ATCS 200, CTX 19"Monitor, Microsoft Precicion Pro and FF2 Joysticks, Track IR, Windows XP OEM, Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Down in the weeds, where Tornados play!

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 11:05 AM

Moos_tachu wrote:
-
- True. And as far as I know (tell me if I'm wrong),
- Tito retired Romania from the Warsaw Pact... Romania
- was not a satellite of USSR like other countries
- were, it was quite independent (just like France
- towards NATO and the USA

That was Yugoslavia, not Romania.

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 12:51 PM

That's true !!! How the hell could I make such a mistake ?!! I'm more ashamed than I have ever been ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Sorry, I swear I will never do it again !

BTW, Ceaucescu was quite a lonely dictator, acting sometimes without asking USSR, so he's not very different from Tito, maybe just more despotic... Nope ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(See how I'm trying to put things right ? OK, that was a big mistake...)

Sorry

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-06-2003, 01:04 PM

valleyboy wrote:
- Rafale and Gripen aren't 5th generation aircraft....
-
- They fall into whats known as the 4+ Generation....
- 5th generation aircraft will be the F-22, and
- JSF....
-

Who decided that ? You ? Personnally I'd say that F-22 is 4+ Gen, and JSF is 4++. Only Rafale and Gripen are 5th. In fact, I'd rather say that only Gripen is 5th, because Rafale is 6th Gen ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Yeah, that's an amazing plane ! We're gonna sell some to foreign countries, maybe the USA will be able to buy them back to a small country in a few decades, to replace their old F-35... Or get them for free by invading a small country which owns some... But be careful, they've got some Rafale to defend them ! (better keep your F-35 on the ground... Oh, that's right, they are old and you want to change them !) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

***Troll Warning : this post was ironic, don't start losing your self-control !***

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-07-2003, 09:18 AM

One thing I can't understand about the Mirage 2000-5, why do they call it like that? Why not Mirage 2005 or 2000-E or something more reasonable? Or 2000-5=1995 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-07-2003, 02:15 PM

Im glad you put the troll warning at the end of the post /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F/A-18 E/F are in the 4+ Generation.... they have high levels of automation, low maintanance, some level of automatic countermeasures.... but they lack the one element to make the 5th Generation aircraft.....

Stealth.

Not a low RCS, but Stealth. Take the avionics out of these aircraft, and put them into a Stealth aircraft, and you have a 5th gen aircraft.

Which Currently are F-22, F-35 and whatever Russia gets round to building... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I don't make the rules...... I just break them /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Athlon XP 2700+,Volcano 9, A7N8X Deluxe, 1024MB XMS3200LL DDR RAM, 80GB DiamondMax 9 Plus, PNY Verto GeForce 4 Ti4600, Cooler Master ATCS 200, CTX 19"Monitor, Microsoft Precicion Pro and FF2 Joysticks, Track IR, Windows XP OEM, Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Down in the weeds, where Tornados play!

XyZspineZyX

06-07-2003, 08:18 PM

I don't think you can compare the F-18E/F with the rest. The eurofighter can only be compared with the F-22 (not even the F-35) the F-22 can be slightly more maneubrable and more stealthy, but the data link system, radar, electronics and supercruise are pretty much the same. and I think Eurofighter can carry more armament (if the raptor wants to maintain stealthyness) 9 does anybody know how much will the raptor cost???

XyZspineZyX

06-07-2003, 11:09 PM

euskarian wrote:
- does anybody know how much will the raptor cost???

If you want the program cost which includes R&D into the price (which is usually the figure everyone throws around) it's looking to be $200+ million depending on how many are built.

The REAL cost to build one? I just read that the USAF was able to increase next years F/A-22 buy by one plane because they had saved $117 million through various cost cutting measures. So obviously it currently costs less than $117 million per F/A-22. The price will probably decrease somewhat over time as they get better at building them but I doubt it will get below $100 million per plane.

XyZspineZyX

06-08-2003, 10:05 PM

too much money for too few jets. I bet you can have a credible entire air force for that money.

XyZspineZyX

06-09-2003, 03:42 AM

Moos_tachu wrote:
-(just like France
- towards NATO and the USA /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

yeah, that was actually pretty smart of them!

bigvette

06-10-2003, 01:22 AM

Moos_tachu wrote:
- In fact, I just explained a few things to Bigvette,
- who didn't seem to know more than you about non-US
- planes, and believed that the Mirage 2000-5 was an
- "elderly" plane (whereas she made her first flight
- in 1990...). And as he was implying that french
- sales were close to zero, I answered that the two
- planes I was talking about had both made good export
- sales.

I didn't want to type out all the zeros, that's why I reverted to Mirage -5 designation, but you can have your day! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- BTW, I d your sarcastic message, very
- amusing... Oh, about South Korea, don't you think
- that the thousands of US "military advisors" may
- have influenced a little the aircraft choice ? Maybe
- they gave a piece of "advice"...

If you or France for that matter really believed that then they wouldn't have invested as much effort and money into trying to sell their Rafales. Notice how no other nation has bought any Rafales yet, while Boeing/McDD has sold plenty of Eagles.

- And about Poland, everyone agrees to say they made a
- huge mistake chosing the F-16 whereas they are about
- to join the European Union, because Europe doesn't
- want to give them money if they use it to buy US
- stuff, and soon they will see the drawbacks of this
- decision. It's a bad symbolic decision they took,
- because they have shown they prefer NATO rather than
- EU...

Who is this "everyone?" You must be referring to everyone in France. The EU will only give Poland aid if they buy EU stuff. Looks like they trusted the US's aid and military hardware more than the EU's aid and military hardware. Drawbacks? How about late Polish F16's flying rings around French Mirages, I can see where you would consider that a drawback.

moe777

06-10-2003, 04:24 AM

Here we go again, what started out as a post about Aircraft prices turns into an US vs France p!ssing match - on the bright side at least it survived one page!

Ashes to Ashes, Post to dust - May it rest in piece's.

bigvette

06-10-2003, 05:26 AM

So it's only a pissing contest when someone responds back to all the French gar-bage? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-10-2003, 02:50 PM

bigvette wrote:
-
- Notice
- how no other nation has bought any Rafales yet,
- while Boeing/McDD has sold plenty of Eagles.

Are you really as stupid as you look like ? It's happy for you that you sold more F-15 than we sold Rafale, since she's about 30 years older !!! But I'm not sure it's the same with Mirage 2000... She's more recent than the Eagle but I think more of them were sold... to be verified... (who owns F-15 ? Japan, Saudi Arabia... and then ?)

- Looks like they trusted the
- US's aid and military hardware more than the EU's
- aid and military hardware.

So Poland might become the 51th state of America ! But as they are joining EU, that's why I said (and I'm not the only one, ask the Swedish) there is a problem.

- Drawbacks? How about late
- Polish F16's flying rings around French Mirages, I
- can see where you would consider that a drawback.

When you write this kind of bullsh!t, do you really believe it yourself ??? It shows which stupid kid you actually are !
And about changing this thread into a p!ssing contest, I wonder who did it if it's not you...

I had sworn not to waste my time anymore with idiots like you, and I'm doing it again. So useless anyway...

Moos

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-10-2003, 06:45 PM

(who owns F-15 ? Japan, Saudi Arabia... and then ?)

USA, Israel, South Korea.

---------------------------------------
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win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
hotas cougar

XyZspineZyX

06-10-2003, 06:53 PM

"- Looks like they trusted the
- US's aid and military hardware more than the EU's
- aid and military hardware."

I think you mean political pressure from US? As was the case with South Korean tender? Trust doesnt have anything to do with this, its all about politics...

______________________________________________

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/grave2000ca/f-15.JPG

bigvette

06-10-2003, 07:45 PM

Moos_tachu wrote:

- Are you really as stupid as you look like ? It's
- happy for you that you sold more F-15 than we sold
- Rafale, since she's about 30 years older !!!

Yeah, your right, Pierre, can't judge the Rafale just yet, it's only been around for a little less than a decade and still, no foreign orders.

- But I'm
- not sure it's the same with Mirage 2000... She's
- more recent than the Eagle but I think more of them
- were sold... to be verified... (who owns F-15 ?
- Japan, Saudi Arabia... and then ?)

So you have the audacity to try and claim that the Mirgae is anywhere near the F15 Eagle platform in terms of damn-near every category? Yeah, you sure know what your talking about!

- So Poland might become the 51th state of America !
- But as they are joining EU, that's why I said (and
- I'm not the only one, ask the Swedish) there is a
- problem.

Oh no, someone disagrees with the Swedish?! How about not wanting to put all your eggs in one basket, like all of the Mirgae examples you always throw back in debate over the foreign F16 sales.-

- When you write this kind of bullsh!t, do you really
- believe it yourself ??? It shows which stupid kid
- you actually are !
- And about changing this thread into a p!ssing
- contest, I wonder who did it if it's not you...

The F-16's that Poland are buying brand new, late-model Block 52 C/D's which feature the APG-68(V)7 radar and a General Electric F110-GE-129 (32,500lbs of thrust.) The aircraft are also capable of using the Lockheed Martin low-altitude navigation and targeting for night (LANTIRN) system. Technology enhancements include color multifunctional displays and programmable display generator, a new Modular Mission Computer, a Digital Terrain System, a new color video camera and color triple-deck video recorder to record the pilot's head-up display view, and an upgraded data transfer unit. By mid-1999 Block 50/52 [aka Block 50 Plus] F-16s will carry the CBU-103/104/105 Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispenser, the AGM-154 Joint Stand-Off Weapon, and the GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munition.

-
- I had sworn not to waste my time anymore with idiots
- like you, and I'm doing it again. So useless
- anyway...

Yeah that's right, Polish F-16s will outclass the French Mirages in every aspect AND they'll still be in the EU - how's that for telling the French to screw off!

Message Edited on 06/10/0310:18PM by bigvette

moe777

06-10-2003, 09:28 PM

bigvette wrote:
- So it's only a pissing contest when someone responds
- back to all the French gar-bage?

Ahh yes, it does take someone to respond to make it a
p!ssing contest, else it would be just some Frenchman
p!ssing alone - damn mental picture (note to self: call shrink).
Believe me mate, Id never stick up for France, where I come from we still remember their little act of state sponsored Terrorism in the mid 80's.

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 09:53 AM

bigvette wrote:
-
- Yeah, your right, Pierre, can't judge the Rafale
- just yet, it's only been around for a little less
- than a decade and still, no foreign orders.
-
- So you have the audacity to try and claim that the
- Mirgae is anywhere near the F15 Eagle platform in
- terms of damn-near every category? Yeah, you sure
- know what your talking about!
-

1) My name is not Pierre (OK **** ?)

2) As I've already said, you don't seem to know anything about planes, the US excepted. The very first Rafales have just begun to become operational in the French air force, for let's say one year. Only 3 or 4 prototypes have been existing for a few years. She has been proposed only once or twice for export, and that's true she lost the markets (never happened to US planes ?)

3) About the Mirage 2000 / F-15, I was only asking how many were sold in the world, and it looks like the Mirage wins the match. Now, make me laugh trying to prove the contrary ! And as you've talked about it, yes I "dare" to say that the 2000 can be compared with the F-15 in every domain. As you certainly don't know, the 2000 is nowadays the main aircraft used in the French air force, and it is able to complete every kinds of missions : air superiority, interception, ground attack, nuclear strike, reconnaissance... I can't see why she would be ridiculous against an F-15, since there's nothing an Eagle can do better than her : payload ? max speed ? manoeuvrability ? avionics ? None is in favor of the F-15... The Mirage is good, and maybe better than the Eagle, for all those things.

But how can you compare since you don't even know how a Mirage looks like ? Stupidity and nationalism has made you blind...

4) What about the Tiger beating the Apache in Australia. Quite a bad surprise for you huh ?

This was my last post, I promise, I will never waste my time again with the stupid childish moron you are /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Moos

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 01:46 PM

uh moos, don't go too far...the F-15 and the mirage 2000 are not in the same category.

---------------------------------------
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ / 512 mo DDR 333
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win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
hotas cougar

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Yep,it would be more the mirage 4000
http://aircraftstories.free.fr/mono/4000/envol/2.jpg

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XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 03:07 PM

You're right Kovy, sometimes I behave like the guys I'm arguying with... I mean, my nationality makes me think that French planes are the most beautiful (which is in fact just a question of taste...), and I see their qualities more than their shortages...

Nevertheless, why not the same category ? Maybe the F-15 has a little better range and payload, but what else ? And I'm sure that the 2000 has better manoeuvrability... The F-15 has two powerfull reactors, that's OK, but it's much heavier !

Anyway, no doubt I know more about the F-15 than Bigvette about the Mirage. Show me I'm wrong **** !

Moos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

PS : Nice pic AKA, strange to see how it looks like a mix between a Mirage 2000 and a Rafale. Sadly it was too expensive... But thanks to it we have the Rafale now !

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

Message Edited on 06/11/0304:11PM by Moos_tachu

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 04:57 PM

The mirage 2000C can't match the F-15C >

2 super 530D + 2 magic2 + 1 1300 L tank for the mirage in full load
up to 8 aim-120 and 3 tanks for the F-15C in full load + the F-15C is faster, fly higher and has a better radar.

The mirage 2000-5 is closer to the F-15C

up to 6 mica and 3 tanks in full loads and state of the art radar (but less range than the F-15C)

The mirage 2000D is far to match the F-15E in payload and range.

---------------------------------------
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ / 512 mo DDR 333
geforce 4 ti4200 64 mo + 44.03 drivers
MSI KT4 ultra mother board
win 2000 pro sp3 + DirectX 9
hotas cougar

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 06:04 PM

F-15C Mirage 4000
Specifications:
Year deployed -1979 first flight-1979
Wing span, m -13.05 -12.00
Lenght, m -1905 -18.70
Height, m -5.63 -6.9
Wing area, m2 -56.6 -73.00
Weight, kg - -
- empty -12800 -13000
- normal take-off -20240 -16100
- maximal take-off -30844 -32000
Engines -2 TJE P&W F100PW2220 -2 TJE SNECMA M53-5
Thrust, kN - -
- afterburner -2 Y 104.3 -6560 kg
- dry -2 Y 63,9 -9700 kg
Maximum speed, km/h- -
- on sea level -1490 -
- in altitude -2655 -2445
Service ceiling, m -18300 -20000
Range, m. - -
- without AFT -1900 ->2000
- with 3 AFT -4630 -
Rate of climb,m/min-15240 -18300
Maximum overload - 9,0 -
Crew -1
Armament: -10705 kg 9hardpoints ->8000 kg 11hardpoints

Look pretty close to me

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XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 08:02 PM

"Looks like they trusted the US's aid and military hardware more than the EU's aid and military hardware. Drawbacks? How about late Polish F16's flying rings around French Mirages, I can see where you would consider that a drawback"

Well, I came just back from a nice week in Barcelona and while I was away a new VS-France discussion started!!!

The EU means a lot more to the former East-European Soviet states than just military aid. The EU uses the 'soft push'method to change and reform these countries to bring them back in the European family and to prepare them for the future. Poland like the others has an enormous amount of problems like an enormous unemploment rate and an outdated economy. This method actually worked really well and unbelievelable things have happened in these countries. However it progresses very slowly and the process knows a lot of difficulties. The EU (and mainly Germany) worked very hard for Poland, but what does Poland do right now? Claiming a position in international poltics which does not fit her internal situation YET.... and thereby insulting her European partners.... she is just a playball for the US to counter the EU....

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"It take 15,000 casualties to train a major general."

Ferdinand Foch

http://frenchnavy.free.fr/aircraft/rafale/images/rafale-036.jpg

moe777

06-11-2003, 09:20 PM

- Well, I came just back from a nice week in Barcelona
- and while I was away a new VS-France discussion
- started!!!

Yep, sorry for starting it, silly me, I didnt know that in some parts of the world a post about aircraft prices translated into an invitation for Joe and Pierre to square off.

bigvette

06-11-2003, 10:33 PM

Vaiar wrote:

The EU (and
- mainly Germany) worked very hard for Poland, but
- what does Poland do right now? Claiming a position
- in international poltics which does not fit her
- internal situation YET.... and thereby insulting her
- European partners.... she is just a playball for the
- US to counter the EU....

Poland never has aligned much with the countries of the EU if you think about it. They were the Soviet Unions biggest ally since WWII, not France or Germanys. So now in a time of crossroads so to speak, don't be so dissapointed if Poland once again chooses not to bankroll her future by soley depending upon the EU for her independance - and look at the world's only remaining super power.

I didn't see the EU bending over backwards ready to give Poland a $3 billion+ very financially attractive loan, so why in the world would the EU claim any sort of rights to be upset with Poland? Poland was looking out for Poland, not the EU.

Message Edited on 06/11/0305:47PM by bigvette

bigvette

06-11-2003, 10:46 PM

Moos_tachu wrote:

- 2) As I've already said, you don't seem to know
- anything about planes, the US excepted. The very
- first Rafales have just begun to become operational
- in the French air force, for let's say one year.
- Only 3 or 4 prototypes have been existing for a few
- years. She has been proposed only once or twice for
- export, and that's true she lost the markets (never
- happened to US planes ?)

Damn Pierre, your the only one getting all upset and flaming. It's dudes like you that the internet deprives the social reality of a good @ss whooping by hiding behind your firewall! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif You live in France and you like the Mirage, (and the US is the new world evil,) am I understanding you correctly?

I know how long the French Rafales have actually been in service, but I am referring to how long the program has been going for, which dates back to the late 80's. Notice how the new JSF has multiple foreign orders, and it's not even in service yet? So stop your crying about the Rafale losing out the F15K, because contrary to what you may beleive, Ronald McDonald is not Joseph Stalin and the US is not trying invade France.

-
- 3) About the Mirage 2000 / F-15, I was only asking
- how many were sold in the world, and it looks like
- the Mirage wins the match. Now, make me laugh trying
- to prove the contrary ! And as you've talked about
- it, yes I "dare" to say that the 2000 can be
- compared with the F-15 in every domain. As you
- certainly don't know, the 2000 is nowadays the main
- aircraft used in the French air force,

Like even Kovy is able to see, the Mirage 2000 is not quite in the same league (think baseball here) as the US's F15 series, let alone to even try and compare the combat readiness or capablities of the French Air Force versus the USAF...

- and it is
- able to complete every kinds of missions : air
- superiority, interception, ground attack, nuclear
- strike, reconnaissance... I can't see why she would
- be ridiculous against an F-15, since there's nothing
- an Eagle can do better than her : payload ? max
- speed ? manoeuvrability ? avionics ? None is in
- favor of the F-15... The Mirage is good, and maybe
- better than the Eagle, for all those things.

Yeah, you sure know what your talking about! The Mirage does not have a higher nor more lethal payload, has inferior avionics, lower top speed, and yes - get this, it's even less manueverable than an F15 at all ranges of the flight envelope. Your Mirgae cannot compensate with thrust when it gets into low speed flight like the F15 can. Sure, the Mirage is a decent platform for all of the 3rd world countries who either cannot afford to or who simply cannot buy US military aircraft, (France seems to sell to anybody, look at Iraq all the way into the 90's!)
-
- But how can you compare since you don't even know
- how a Mirage looks like ? Stupidity and nationalism
- has made you blind...

That's like the pot calling the kettle black! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- 4) What about the Tiger beating the Apache in
- Australia. Quite a bad surprise for you huh ?

The Apache has maintenance issues, but I'm still waiting to here how suppossedly the Tiger has a range 2X that of the Apache with the same payload. I don't buy that, even it was what was promised. But hey, for anyone who doesn't produce their own military hardware, it's never been wise to burn all your bridges and just depend upon one nation for your defense!

-
- This was my last post, I promise, I will never waste
- my time again with the stupid childish moron you are

Yes Moos, show us your maturity and enlighten us with your knowledge.

bigvette

06-11-2003, 10:49 PM

AKA44 wrote:
- Yep,it would be more the mirage 4000

Isn't that the Mirage that not even France bought?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Message Edited on 06/11/0305:49PM by bigvette

bigvette

06-11-2003, 10:51 PM

moe777 wrote:

- Yep, sorry for starting it, silly me, I didnt know
- that in some parts of the world a post about
- aircraft prices translated into an invitation for
- Joe and Pierre to square off.

And here I thought the French like to debate. God forbid if I'm the only one that fires back at some of the ridiculous comments Moos makes - I must be the instigator, eh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

moe777

06-11-2003, 10:55 PM

@ Vaiar,
How did Poland insult the EU, by not buying French planes? By supporting the US in its latest adventure? I seem to remember Spain is a EU country, along with the UK and Italy, were they insulted by Poland's actions?

Just a point about France, Germany and the EU. Just remember that they are only two OF the EU countries, and that there is also Italy, Spain, Greece, UK, etc, etc.

Hmmmmmmmm.......Chocolate!

XyZspineZyX

06-11-2003, 10:56 PM

bigvette wrote:
- AKA44 wrote:
-- Yep,it would be more the mirage 4000
-
-
- Isn't that the Mirage that not even France bought?!

We have a winner!

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moe777

06-11-2003, 11:06 PM

Bigvette, Im not French!

Hmmmmmmmm.......Chocolate!

bigvette

06-12-2003, 01:26 AM

My bad, moe - I was reffering to Moo Choo on that one.

moe777

06-12-2003, 04:39 AM

Ah well, Ill forgive, then again only really posting this message to test my preference's

Bugger!

XyZspineZyX

06-12-2003, 07:35 AM

Well the South Korean deal is more deep than you think.
Firts of all if the SK had chosed the Mirage then they would need a lot of more money to spend, same was fo Su if it was declared winner.

Even it F15 have a price per unit higher than the Mirage, even if its capabilities where to be close to Miges ones, still remain one thing ..For years SKAF had operated US build planes so it is used to maintain them , to operate them , resuming had a LOT of experience with US builds. That kind of thing can't be bought, and it is a shame if they would let it go. Not a shame Stupidity would be.

Buying F15 they minimalize the learning curve.I wouln't be surprised if some SK F16 pilots whould be trained for F15.

The Poland deal is very weird, but is the way to go.Since it is a well known fact that ex Communist State have Pro-US attitude.During the cold war they hoped that they would be freed by comunist by the US. That is a fact. here in Romania it is said that we expected the US to come here for about 55 years.
Also Poland need a good plane, battle tested, that will allow it to care air operations NATO style(AWACS,air refueling,SEAD,etc). So basically they are changing the defence startegy from EX Warshow Pact, to NATO strategy.
But they will keep also the MIG29 ugraded to Nato Standards.

What I am currious is in what role will be deployed the F16, and in what role the MIG29 in Polish AF.

XyZspineZyX

06-12-2003, 09:45 AM

bigvette wrote:

- blah blah blah

[EDIT] Go on, think what you want in your wonderfull world where US is good and all the others are craps, especially France. I don't care. Useless to argue with childish morons.

[Edit please watch you language, thanks]

Moos

PS : Sorry Nic for the copy/paste... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

---------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

Message Edited on 10/30/0310:27PM by Grave2002

bigvette

06-12-2003, 04:28 PM

Moos_tachu wrote:
-
- bigvette wrote:
-
-- blah blah blah
-
-
- F*ck off @sshole. Go on, think what you want in your
- wonderfull world where US is good and all the others
- are craps, especially France. I don't care. Useless
- to argue with childish morons.
-
- Moos
-

Moo-Moo,

Define "childish" - I don't think your using that word correctly. (Those damned French/English dictionaries again!)

XyZspineZyX

06-12-2003, 04:40 PM

Hmmmm this discussion is going too much personal...
Tss Tss

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bigvette

06-12-2003, 07:13 PM

Testing out those new mods! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-13-2003, 02:09 AM

moe777 wrote:
- @ Vaiar,
- How did Poland insult the EU, by not buying French
- planes? By supporting the US in its latest
- adventure? I seem to remember Spain is a EU country,
- along with the UK and Italy, were they insulted by
- Poland's actions?
-
- Just a point about France, Germany and the EU. Just
- remember that they are only two OF the EU countries,
- and that there is also Italy, Spain, Greece, UK,
- etc, etc.

Well the point is that the EU subsidize most of the money Poland pays for the new fighter. So it is absolutely ridiculous that the EU didn't put a condition to this to actually buy a European plane (not necessarily French, but why not a Gripen or a Typhoon). People are pretty mad that they give much money to help Poland, and in turn Poland doesn't hesitate to just spend it on the US stuff and not on the Europe stuff. Europe didn't force Poland to buy European planes in compesation of the loans. If you ask me that's really dumb and it infuriates me. Don't forget that Poland wants to enter the EU, it's not Europe who want to absorb new countries. It's the other way around. So Poland should make some efforts if it wants to join, especially since Europe could provide state of the art fighters.

BTW Moos don't waste your time on Bigvette. Either he does it on purpose to infuriate you, or he is just too stupid. Either way it's not worth loosing your cool /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nic

Message Edited on 06/12/0307:09PM by nicolas10

moe777

06-13-2003, 02:51 AM

@nicolas10

Ahh that makes it clearer, in my defence though I interpreted Viar's comment as a "They should have brought french planes...." one, my mistake, I reckon they shoulda brought the Gripen - no reason really for that, just like the look of the little bugger!

* You know the world is messed up when:
* The best golfer is a black guy,
* The best rapper is a white guy,
* The French are accusing the US of being arrogant,
* And Germany doesnt want to go to war.

bigvette

06-13-2003, 03:20 AM

nicolas10 wrote:
-
- Well the point is that the EU subsidize most of the
- money Poland pays for the new fighter.

Funny how there was no loan on the table like that of what the US went out of her way to give Poland. And it's not like Poland has zero GDP for the next 10 years (with up to an 8 year grace period) in which to pay back the loan.

- So it is
- absolutely ridiculous that the EU didn't put a
- condition to this to actually buy a European plane
- (not necessarily French, but why not a Gripen or a
- Typhoon).

So what happens when Air Berlin bought their 737's over Airbuses, do they have to change their name and move out of the country?

- People are pretty mad that they give much
- money to help Poland, and in turn Poland doesn't
- hesitate to just spend it on the US stuff and not on
- the Europe stuff.

Holy sh!t, welcome to the world of the US taxpayer! "Sure, take 30% to 40% of our annual income and then turn around and give it to foreign countries, everything is just fine here at home," we try and tell ourselves.

The US government has been giving out money up the ying yang for decades to all of these seemingly undeserving countries in their time of need, but we the citizens trust (or at least hope) that this was the right thing to do.

Don't know what else to tell you there, other than that the feeling you and apparently a lot of EU dudes are now feeling with regards to Poland is nothing new to what we US Americans have had to deal with for decades.

- Europe didn't force Poland to buy
- European planes in compesation of the loans.

So you think the US "forced" Poland to agree to an awesome loan with a grace period nearly as long as the initial repayment period for top-tier technology in Block 52 F-16C's? An antagonist would suggest that it was the EU who forced Poland to go with the Americans offer because the EU would not match the US's offer!

- If you
- ask me that's really dumb and it infuriates me.
- Don't forget that Poland wants to enter the EU, it's
- not Europe who want to absorb new countries.

France wants all of the little euro nations to join their EU because they think it will only make them look stronger on a world scale. The UN is in disarry and the EU is all France has left.

- It's
- the other way around. So Poland should make some
- efforts if it wants to join, especially since Europe
- could provide state of the art fighters.

They could, but they want to sell them to Poland at a higher price, (the total cost of financing should be weighed into the equation if they are not paying in cash.)

-
- BTW Moos don't waste your time on Bigvette. Either
- he does it on purpose to infuriate you, or he is
- just too stupid.

What do you think? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Either way it's not worth loosing
- your cool

Moo-choo lost his cool long before I arrived! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX

06-13-2003, 11:53 AM

bigvette wrote:
- Funny how there was no loan on the table like that
- of what the US went out of her way to give Poland.
- And it's not like Poland has zero GDP for the next
- 10 years (with up to an 8 year grace period) in
- which to pay back the loan.

Well you loan something that you give them the money to pay for in the first place? Then maybe we should provide a truckload of vaselina too while we're at it?

- So what happens when Air Berlin bought their 737's
- over Airbuses, do they have to change their name and
- move out of the country?

- Holy sh!t, welcome to the world of the US taxpayer!
- "Sure, take 30% to 40% of our annual income and then
- turn around and give it to foreign countries,
- everything is just fine here at home," we try and
- tell ourselves.

You're ignoring the argument that Poland buys US jets with some EU money. If an airline chooses Boeing it's up to them.
Have you given money to a country that in turn used it to buy Euro or Russian airplanes?

- The US government has been giving out money up the
- ying yang for decades to all of these seemingly
- undeserving countries in their time of need, but we
- the citizens trust (or at least hope) that this was
- the right thing to do.
-
- Don't know what else to tell you there, other than
- that the feeling you and apparently a lot of EU
- dudes are now feeling with regards to Poland is
- nothing new to what we US Americans have had to deal
- with for decades.

Foreign aid has nothing to do with funding war planes. I remind you that if you compare the foreign aid to GDP, the US comes after many other countries including France. The sheer size of the US makes it the one that gives the most of money. But if you take the ratio... it comes one of the last.

- So you think the US "forced" Poland to agree to an
- awesome loan with a grace period nearly as long as
- the initial repayment period for top-tier technology
- in Block 52 F-16C's? An antagonist would suggest
- that it was the EU who forced Poland to go with the
- Americans offer because the EU would not match the
- US's offer!

I didn't say that the US forced Poland to buy the F16, although I think they use this kind anytime they can. I'm pretty pissed that the EU doesn't do the same. If they don't play fair we shoudln't play fair either. The US have proven what kind of political tricks they use to sell their planes (ie Korea), so just giving out money for a plane without conditions is like bending over to get screwed again.

- France wants all of the little euro nations to join
- their EU because they think it will only make them
- look stronger on a world scale. The UN is in disarry
- and the EU is all France has left.

This is complete nonsense. The more countries the less the EU will be controlable. The poorest the countries the more aid will have to be given to those new countries instead of the countries that benefit from them at the moment. It is particularly sensitive for France in the agriculture area, which is a very big lobby, and a very sensitive point for Chirac.

Besides the EU market is already at least as big as the US. The Iraq crisis pretty much showed the limits of expanding the EU, when you see many division inside the EU about it, and how it prevents us from having a coherent international policy. So much for our interest to accept new countries, as it will make the mess even worse. The very interest of the US is to push for the entrance of other countries (Including Turkey, to create an unstable union with a muslim state for instance) to block the EU from becoming effective.

- They could, but they want to sell them to Poland at
- a higher price, (the total cost of financing should
- be weighed into the equation if they are not paying
- in cash.)

They already gave them the money, give me a break.

-- BTW Moos don't waste your time on Bigvette. Either
-- he does it on purpose to infuriate you, or he is
-- just too stupid.
-
- What do you think?

I think both are right.

Nic

Message Edited on 06/13/0304:53AM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX

07-03-2003, 01:41 AM

This is from one of mine Dreamcast game:

01- E.E. Lightning/F6 8,000,000
02- F-5E Tiger II Free /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
03- Mig-21 Fishbed 100,000
04- Kfir C.7 120,000
05- F-4E Phantom II 200,000
06- Sea Harrier 6,200,000
07- Mirage 2000 180,000
08- Mig-31 Foxhound 280,000
09- F-20 Tiger Shark 300,000
10- AV-8B Harrier II 6,000,000
11- Mig-29 Fulcrum 220,000
12- F-16 Fighting Falcon 260,000
13- F/A-18C Hornet 300,000
14- F/A-18E Super Hornet 350,000
15- Tornado F3 300,000
16- A-10 Thunderbolt II 180,000
17- F-14D Tomcat 450,000
18- F-15E Strike Eagle 470,000
19- F-117A Night Hawk 480,000
20- Su-27B Flanker 320,000
21- F-15S / MT Active 700,000
22- Jas39 Gripen 380,000
23- Rafale 420,000
24- Su-34 Platypus 340,000
25- EF 2000 Typhoon 480,000
26- Su-37 Flanker 500,000
27- YF-23 Black Widow 650,000
28- S-37 Berkut 800,000
29- F-22 Raptor 600,000
30- JSF X-32 550,000
31- Mig-1.44 MFI 5,000,000

XyZspineZyX

07-03-2003, 03:00 AM

Havok_1 wrote:
- This is from one of mine Dreamcast game:

AirForce Delta Storm?

http://www.x-plane.org/users/12thiaptbone/tartar.jpg

bigvette

07-03-2003, 03:00 AM

Kind of interesting how the F5 is free but add a couple good engines and avionics and all of a sudden they want 300k for it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

That price on the MiG 1.44 - is that how much they need in order to complete it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Oh, a wise guy, eh?"

http://www.gmmy.com/comedy/stoogbest.jpg

XyZspineZyX

07-03-2003, 03:42 AM

The game is called just "Airforce Delta" i guess because it is the first one

i don't understand why the E.E. Lightning (#1) is so ex*****ive

i bought it.. it sucked.. so i didn't save it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Wish they had the Frogfoot.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif bigvette..

<center>http://home.att.net/~antont/airforcedeltastrike_screen006262.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX

07-03-2003, 08:19 AM

bigvette wrote:
- Funny how there was no loan on the table like that
- of what the US went out of her way to give Poland.
- And it's not like Poland has zero GDP for the next
- 10 years (with up to an 8 year grace period) in
- which to pay back the loan.

by joining the EU, Poland will have to pay to the EU, but it will get more subsidy (tried to look it, and i guess this is the correct english term.) back then they have to pay. the polish agriculture is in a really bad shape, and also because of their GDP is in the lower region the will get help, not loans.

- So what happens when Air Berlin bought their 737's
- over Airbuses, do they have to change their name and
- move out of the country?

i thought thats only what happens to US airliners buying french planes... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif j/k

- Holy sh!t, welcome to the world of the US taxpayer!
- "Sure, take 30% to 40% of our annual income and then
- turn around and give it to foreign countries,
- everything is just fine here at home," we try and
- tell ourselves.

i think you are confusing Defense with Foreign Aid. dont worry, they look alike.

- The US government has been giving out money up the
- ying yang for decades to all of these seemingly
- undeserving countries in their time of need, but we
- the citizens trust (or at least hope) that this was
- the right thing to do.
-
- Don't know what else to tell you there, other than
- that the feeling you and apparently a lot of EU
- dudes are now feeling with regards to Poland is
- nothing new to what we US Americans have had to deal
- with for decades.

dont flatter yourself, the countries in the EU spend a lot on forign aid, relatively more then the US.

- So you think the US "forced" Poland to agree to an
- awesome loan with a grace period nearly as long as
- the initial repayment period for top-tier technology
- in Block 52 F-16C's? An antagonist would suggest
- that it was the EU who forced Poland to go with the
- Americans offer because the EU would not match the
- US's offer!
- France wants all of the little euro nations to join
- their EU because they think it will only make them
- look stronger on a world scale. The UN is in disarry
- and the EU is all France has left.

well, sorry, but the strong US and Azian economies forced the EU to become. no way france is the leader, nor is germany. we are a long from being the United States of Europe. every EU country tries to keep as much of its souverenity as possible.

- They could, but they want to sell them to Poland at
- a higher price, (the total cost of financing should
- be weighed into the equation if they are not paying
- in cash.)

and at last. poland should be able to buy US planes. i dont really see the harm in that. if the price/performance for te f16 is better then the eurofighter, i'd have picked the f16 as well... as stated before, Poland isnt really rich.

99th Skywolves
<CENTER>http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/megilebrown/images/SkyWolflogo.jpg