English Electric Lightning - Engine location?

[britgliderpilot]

I have a coursework on the EE Lightning to do over the next couple days, including a trip to Duxford to poke about one in the flesh.

I have a list of things to look at, most of which should pose an immediate problem, but one thing's been bugging me . . .


The Lightning has a pair of Avon engines sitting one on top of the other.

As far as I know, this layout is unique to the Lightning . . . and I'm not entirely sure why it was chosen.

If anyone could shed any light on the matter, I'd appreciate it.


(Puts on coat and struggles to library to see what Janes has to say on the matter)

<center>http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg </center>

[britgliderpilot]

I have a coursework on the EE Lightning to do over the next couple days, including a trip to Duxford to poke about one in the flesh.

I have a list of things to look at, most of which should pose an immediate problem, but one thing's been bugging me . . .


The Lightning has a pair of Avon engines sitting one on top of the other.

As far as I know, this layout is unique to the Lightning . . . and I'm not entirely sure why it was chosen.

If anyone could shed any light on the matter, I'd appreciate it.


(Puts on coat and struggles to library to see what Janes has to say on the matter)

&lt;center&gt;http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg &lt;/center&gt;

[robban75]

The Lightning is an eyecatching aswell as outstanding design no matter how you look at it. The original engine layout kinda fits together with the rest of the plane.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
i don't think it was for a special reason, just a uniqe idea. Although it might a good choice in case of an engine failure.

Did the prototype have two engines, or just one? Judging from the picture it looks like it only had one engine.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/shortssb5b.jpg

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

[britgliderpilot]

Ah, that wasn't the prototype.

I can see why you'd think so, but that's a test aircraft built by Shorts . . . they keep it at Cosford now.

They used it to experiment with wing sweep - they had to take the wings off and modify them, but they were designed to do that a lot more easily than with an existing aircraft.

I think that did have one engine.


The Lightning prototype also had the gaping mouth without the intake bullet, and the two probes coming off it . . . . but the probes were at the top and bottom as opposed to the sides.

Also note the different tail arrangements.

If you go to RAF Cosford, they have three of them in a row (or did last time I was there) - the SB5, the Lightning prototype, and a production Lightning.


Just went and checked in Janes - turns out the engines are staggered, too . . . and I really should have paid more attention to which one was in front.

Presumably helps with CofG considerations, too.

&lt;center&gt;http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg &lt;/center&gt;

[Haele]

I believe the lower engine is in front, from what I remember.

[Coolie-14]

This is my theory...

They chose that layout because of the size they needed to make the aircraft demanded 2 engines and back then they had problems with transonic aerodynamics. Most engineers had only had success with supersonic single engine aircraft because of the narrow front cross section...the lightnings engine arrangement keeps a narrow cross section...

[m.broughton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most engineers had only had success with supersonic single engine aircraft because of the narrow front cross section...the lightnings engine arrangement keeps a narrow cross section... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts too, was the lightning design befor the area rule was discovered?

[tomcat1974]

I read somewhere that the engines position was as sure backup in case one engine is lost. Initial batch of RR engines where not that reliable like they wanted. SO if pilot loose and engine there where no asymetrical thrust at all.
Another "feature" was the belly bulge that holded a fuel tank reducing very much chances to do a belly landing.

http://www.soft4net.ro/~phoratiu/tomcat.jpg

[Coolie-14]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My thoughts too, was the lightning design befor the area rule was discovered?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think it was before the area rule...cos that gave the age of the coke bottle fuselages which were around a smidge beforehand...think the area rule definitely had a bearing on its config though

[This message was edited by Coolie-14 on Thu January 29 2004 at 02:57 PM.]

[Force_73rd_]

A while ago, I read about the Lightning in Super Jets 2 (cool book, nice SR-71 pics) I recall that the author told that the dual engine layout was chosen to allow a quick climb to a high altitude, maybe it had something to do with the spool up times of teh engines (differentil thrust), but don't quote me on this one, it might as well be the sr-71 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Dr...Watson]

I have a book about the lightning somewhere, it goes into great detail about the engineering etc..straight to the point stuff.

Let me see if I can dig it up and see what it says.....

PS, nice Gunzo last night http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...yes, I did put the F15 into a sort of flat spin corkscrew type thing at 200ft but got out of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif , only to see u do the same thing and hit the drink http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ..much FUN. Some guys came on with AMRAAMS and ruined it all though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/drwatson/Typhoon-sig.JPG

[britgliderpilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr...Watson:
I have a book about the lightning somewhere, it goes into great detail about the engineering etc..straight to the point stuff.

Let me see if I can dig it up and see what it says.....

PS, nice Gunzo last night http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...yes, I did put the F15 into a sort of flat spin corkscrew type thing at 200ft but got out of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif , only to see u do the same thing and hit the drink http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ..much FUN. Some guys came on with AMRAAMS and ruined it all though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/drwatson/Typhoon-sig.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I handed in the coursework already, actually . . grin.

I managed to find a book on the Lightning in the library - included in which was an extract of the original note from English Electric saying that the engine layout allowed for the smallest possible frontal areas . . . so looks like it was that.

Cheers to those who answered, at least gave me something to put in while I was searching for the answer.

The belly bulge, btw, was added for the production aircraft - wasn't there on the prototypes.
However, it did extend the range beyond "air defence over the airfield beacon" . . . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



That server last night was lagging to hell for me . . . . weird. Seeing jets flying around sideways, backwards, bouncing, at negative angles of attack . . . urggghh.

Was doing a 1v1 gunzo earlier though, and it looks absolutely delightful compared to Flanker - I might be converted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

&lt;center&gt;http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg &lt;/center&gt;

[Dr...Watson]

I experienced exactly the same, was flying formation airshows wth a guy called MIKa, no lag, perfect formations, blasting up the valleys, we then dobe a head on appraoch over the runway, he was landing, i was doing mach 1+ and I caught his tail fin, I went on fire but managed a belly landing, he hut the ground hard, no one in the crowd was hurt.....

I was hooked, then the next few flights were lag city! HL was being re-booted all night though.

http://www.freewebs.com/drwatson/Typhoon-sig.JPG

[Dr...Watson]

Hi Brit

I know you handed the work in already, I had a look in my book about the Lightning, you are right about the smaller frontal cross section and they used 2 engines becuase one large engine used more fuel in afterburner the 2 in afterburner. I have the whole section but the forum doesnt like cut and paste...c u around.

http://www.freewebs.com/drwatson/Typhoon-sig.JPG

[nicolas10]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by britgliderpilot:
...at negative angles of attack . . . urggghh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that the angle of defense?

(does the worse joke of the week win something?)

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

[britgliderpilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nicolas10:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by britgliderpilot:
...at negative angles of attack . . . urggghh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that the angle of defense?

(does the worse joke of the week win something?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

No, but you deserve something for that one . . . . grin.


A Lightning with an even more fearsome fuel consumption?

Scary thought . . . . what would be the tactics for using that? Me163 style intercepts and gliding landings?

&lt;center&gt;http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg &lt;/center&gt;

[c-ber3]

Was the Lightning's fuel consumption very high during full Mil power as well as AB?

[muse-sic]

Another oddity is where it 'hangs' the external fuel tanks

http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/lightning-crew.jpg


Now that's just plane wrong

â"¢ If at first you donâ't succeed, maybe skydiving is not for you.

[c-ber3]

But then they strapped the missiles to the nose cone as well.
That was the trouble with the Lightning, apart from the wings, engines and fuel everything else was just an inconvienance

[britgliderpilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c-ber3:
But then they strapped the missiles to the nose cone as well.
That was the trouble with the Lightning, apart from the wings, engines and fuel everything else was just an inconvienance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well fuel always seemed like a bit of an afterthought, too . . . . "Help! Where can we put more of it!"

There was a design proposal for a superLightning with missiles on the wingtips - seems even EE realised the shortcomings of that design.

The trouble with the external tanks is that the wheels, folding outwards into the wing, take up about 2/3 of the span . . . and you don't really want to hang fuel tanks on the tips.
And the wheels need long undercarriage legs so that the obscenely huge fuel bulge under the belly can clear the ground . . .

Still a lovely flying machine, though.

&lt;center&gt;http://koti.welho.com/mkihlman/2004sigs/newsigblack.jpg &lt;/center&gt;

(A story I read about a Lightning in the Cold War . . . it was escorting a Bear over the North Sea, and managed to lose it's tanker. After several minutes of frantic radio calls, started making preparations to eject.
At this point, the Bear came on the radio, gave a distance and bearing to the tanker, and ended with "English Electric MiG, bon voyage!"

Ahh . . . . what a lovely story . . . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif)

[Coolie-14]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by britgliderpilot:
I managed to find a book on the Lightning in the library - included in which was an extract of the original note from English Electric saying that the engine layout allowed for the smallest possible frontal areas . . . so looks like it was that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I fluked it? Your giving me a big head Brit heehee

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What is that mountain goat doing way up here in the clouds?

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[captjohnney]

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