Hi everyone,

I hope that this conversation will remain classy and polite.

Here's my problem. After dogfighting with BF-109s and FW-190s with every single allied plane in the original IL2, I finally decided to try the other side. And I really, really dig the BF-109 (especially the late-war models with the M108 in the nose).

HOWEVER...

I'm a Jew. And no matter how many times I say to myself "It's just a game," I feel really uncomfortable flying for the Luftwaffe with my grandparents' menorah in the corner of my room. I'm not saying Joseph Stalin was all sunshine and roses at all. But even though it's just a game, I feel awkward flying for a military that was trying to wipe my family off the face of the earth.

How do others deal with this? Do you just not worry about it? Do you have some way of rationalizing it? I'm not guilt-tripping y'all; I'm looking for a way to feel comfortable flying a plane that I really like.

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I-16 and IL-2I.

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken. Remember the past but dont dwell on it. Also read about the Luftwaffe and you will see that not all Germans were Nazis just like all Americans are'nt Republicans. They were just doing their duty. All societies have had their bloody past.

9./JG54 Rummy

Fly Finnish. All ethical problems solved and you get the nifty LW aircraft to fly.

I'm an American. My grandfather flew the P-47 in WWII.

I hate flying the P-47.

How can I say that? BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME!!

I fly with JG27. I am not a Nazi. I prefer flying the bf-109 because I have found it is the plane that most fits the style of flying I have come to excell at. I fly with JG27 because I met them, and they are a good bunch of guys. We aren't a German squadron. We just took the name. Hell, we could be called the "Beer Swiller / A$$ Kickers" for all I care.

I'm not here for idiology. I just likes me some flyin!

I look at the entire sim as a game, but I do prefer flying for the Russians/Allies. I have no problem with those who enjoy German. Also, remember...these are airmen, not necessarily Nazis. Deal with it any way you want, to each his own. Its the enjoyment of simulated air combat.

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Gosh, It's been a long time since I've heard those lyrics. Brings back memories of going to the cash machine with my friend Dave to get some money before going into Dissolution (Goth club in Sheffield) and some random bloke shouted, "Goths! Why do you do it?" You know, I couldn't think of a good answer

Yeah, the Israelis used the Czech version of the 109. I think they used Spits as well. Both sides used whatever they could get their hands on. Flying Finnish is probably your best bet. If I knew how to skin, I'd probably make an Israeli skin for the 109 'cause I always thought that IADF camo patterns looked cool.

"You can try, but it is a difficult and thankless task to compare the combat qualities of aircraft using reference book data. There are simply too many nuances to consider." N. G. Golodnikov

quote:

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Originally posted by rummyrum:
Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken.

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Turns out you're correct. I had never heard of this before, but I guess I learn something every day:



http://204.50.25.179/features00/s199ic_1.htm

The Avia S-199 was a Czech modification of the BF-109. Israel purchased 25 of them (Czechoslovakia was the only country who was willing to sell arms to Israel during the War for Independence). The Avia, nicknamed the Mezek (mule) by its Israeli pilots, saw extensive service in the defense of Tel Aviv.

This got me thinking...
1) In FB, can you use skins for QMB or just multiplayer? In the original IL-2, it's just multiplayer...
2) If FB can use skins on QMB, does any computer-talented individual out there feel the urge to make a skin of the Israeli Air Force's S-199? It would just about make my month to fly this baby against either Germany or the Soviet Union...

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"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

S! EMitton,

I too am a Jew, but futher more than is a man in my squadron who was alive at the time of the 2nd world war. He flies in our bomber corp. He still refuses to fly any German aircraft in the simulation because he had too many frends die at the hands of the creations of William Messershmitt and Kurt Tank.

My thinking is that these are tools, and that pilots in Germany were not members of any political parties, only helps to quell any feelings I have about the instruments of war. But for anyone to say: "Hey, its easy, it's just a game" is, in my opinion with no offence at all intended, is foolish, because it is not easy to forget the tragedies of History.

What model of the BF-109 was the S-199 based on? I'd love to create a skin for the 109 based on that model.

In FB you can change skins in QMB and also during the Campaign.

Email me, raf74jazzman@aircombat.net and I'll get it to you

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron

This skin already exists at IL2 skins . com.

Israeli Avia




The Avia was powered by a Jumo engine rather than the DB engine of regular 109s. Hence it was a very nose heavy and underpowered aircraft. The pilots who flew it are fond of saying that it "tried to kill us every time we flew it."


_____________________________



BlitzPig_EL

http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1760

A VERY NICE Israeli skin for the bf109k4. Also check:

http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1789
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=2987
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=4672
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=4519
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1003

Don't think they're quite up to scratch with the first, but decent.

I personally don't have a second thought when picking German fighters to fly, they are just a tool after all. I applaud the developers for choosing not to put the swastika on any of the German skins and I think guys that go out of their way to put them back on there (like the little program I saw on Mudmovers recently) are a tad creepy...

No,I don't have a problem flying for the Germans. The Luftwaffe doesn't equal Nazism or it's ideals. There were plenty of good men that flew for the 3rd Reich but didn't follow it's ideology. They were simply doing their duty for their country. I fly LW simply because I happen to like German planes(but not exclusively.)

"Not all who wander are lost."

Well now

After I just finished putting together that exact scheme.. LOL

I figured it had already been done, and il2skins.com is definately the place to look!

EMitton, if you still want the one that I just finished, you can still email me

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron

Oh Crash...your modesty preceeds you -

"I prefer flying the bf-109 because I have found it is the plane that most fits the style of flying I have come to excell at."

EMitton, you'll notice the Russian squads flying Russian A/C only despite Stalin's genocidal track record (which outstrips Hitler by a long shot). I'm in no position to relate to your dilemma. Although only a computer game it must feel occasionaly odd to be flying around in the cutting edge technology of a regime that, amongst other rotten ideals, saw fit to exterminate you and your family.

As a German I also have thought about these things. I lost a lot of my family to the Russians. But once again, this is just a flight sim and the intentions are just to enjoy flying planes. If jump into an Allied plane and shoot down some LW planes, it's still just a game. There are no political or ethical issues. Think of intensions. That's what counts.

Fritz

I agree with Rummyrum about the Germans.
But I fly mostly Russian which is a similar situation since they were under a communist regime which later ruled over Czechoslovakia, where my heritage is from.
I just set political differences aside and understand that there were men on both sides just doing their duty.
Besides, most Russians were not card-carrying members of the communist party. They were just defending their homeland. Ordinary Germans defended their homeland in the same way. The more you understand the better you will feel about this matter.

***
80% of all German casualties in WW2 were on the Eastern Front.
I need to make my pic smaller before i can post it.
http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/281203-000_0049.JPG

Do what your heart tells you is right... just don't expect others' hearts to tell them the same.

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Judging from the wing bulges, short tail wheel and the lack of a trim tab on the rudder, I'd guess the S-199 was similar to a G-10 variant; it seems to me that the Czechs made a few S-99s which were equipped with DB-605s, but there was a fire where their engines were stored, and they were forced to make do with the Jumos.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

I am not a jew, but I am certainly not fond of the germans. My maternal great grandfather spent time in a KZ camp, my great aunt married a german occupation soldier who left her and never came back, forcing her to leave the community with her newborn son, my father's uncle fought in the Freikorps Danmark SS Division, my step mother's father was in the R.E.M.E. and my great uncle had 2 sons who fought in the US forces.

Nobody died as far as I am aware, but my family has been affected by these events for a very long time.

But, I fly every aircraft in IL2. I would have joined a german squad had I not found the GeeYap (the commander is danish which kinda pushed me that way!!) as I really like 109s.

Warbirds, tanks, guns, battleships; these are not instruments of political terror but are instruments of warfare. Everybody had them, it was the men using them that were different, or the men leading them that were different. And it is just a game.

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!


Za Rodinu!

Read some books. Some luftwaffe pilots were nazis and some were not. A lot of them were just good soldiers following orders and trying to keep their families from being run over by the russians. I know if I was in their shoes I wouldn't have felt bad about it.

I don't like the direction the country I am in now is going. Bush is another Hitler. But you can bet if someone was heading towards my house and taking no prisoners like the russians were doing in WWII I would shoot the $hit out them no matter what a$$hole was in the white house that got me into the mess.

So just be a good soldier and do your job. You get to have fun doing it too!

Quit thinking, life goes a lot smoother that way. There is not one problem mankind has that did not begin with one of those damn thoughts.


Jumoschwanz

Incidentally, I'm wondering if the swastika tail marking on LW craft was some sort of regulation, and if so how strict? Could a LW pilot refuse to have one on his plane?